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Chuck.....

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Topic: Chuck.....
Posted By: Ray Brown
Subject: Chuck.....
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 11:45am
with my temper tantrum behind me I apologize to you and to all those who visit here for my earlier outburst.   Seeing that my credentials were still good I am glad to be back.

For what it is worth, and so all that come here to be informed I submitted this letter this morning to the Chairman of the MFC in hopes that the state decides to once again give everyone a legislatively granted right to be heard in the ratio that such input was to have been given.  One that any prudent person reviewing the AC makeups can see that balance has been lost to either geographical centered advocacy or advocation advocacy centered and a long ways from the 3,3,2,1 that the MFC is made of.

Dear Mr. Chairman:

This is a formal request to return to the precedent set in staffing MFC Advisory Committees in 1999.   At that time there was a committee named the Inland committee that was one of the original standing committees of the Fishery Reform Act of 1998 and was originally made up of residents living away from the coast as was its original intent and makeup.   I was one of the original members.   We began, as did all committees, in January of 1998.   The committee was made up of individuals meeting the geographical requirement, but since we were living inland and away from the coast there were no commercial fishermen in the group.   In 1999, there was a complaint filed that said that committee, like all MFC committees, was an extension of the MFC itself and therefore needed to be made up with the same ratios of participants as the MFC.   Which would be 3 recreational members, 3 commercial members, two with no affiliation with either (at large) and one from the community of scientist.   The complaint was filed on behalf of the NC Fisheries Association, a commercial fishing lobbyist group.   The complaint was heard, and the committee was forced to re-arrange itself accordingly.  This was implemented when Jimmy Johnson was Chairman albeit the decision to do so was made either by the DENR director or a legislative correction.  You can certainly talk to him if you wish to talk with someone else who would remember and verify what happened.   I remember well, because I was one of three that was replaced at the time.  I was placed onto the newly formed, and initial southern flounder AC, by Chairman Johnson since I was frustrated that my willingness to serve the state as a volunteer was being displaced by something I could not control.

 

I’m making this a formal complaint because in recent days I have noticed the makeup of numerous advisory committees and while this precedent was set and validated in 1999, the current make up of many ACs does not in any way show the balanced representation as the MFC is supposed to have, and since in 1999 it was deemed that all these committees were to be of the same ratios.  I’m requesting that the ratios of representation return to those mirroring the MFC until such time as the legislature deems the makeup of the MFC is to be different than it is mandated to be today.  I also request it be implemented ASAP, including the removal of individuals to attain the balance if that becomes the most expedited method available.  There is no number requirement on any AC, but the 1999 move certainly set legal precedent regarding the makeup of all MFC Advisory Committees whether standing or formed for a specific purpose such as shellfish, southern flounder, etc. since all are public trust resources and owned collectively by all NC citizens.

 

I realize I’m merely a citizen and do not speak for a lobbying group as was the case in 1999, but I am a citizen, and like all NC citizens I am a stakeholder in how our public trust resources are managed and a very keen proponent that our system is consistent.   With that as a guiding point, I ask that this request be noted as received in writing or by electronic response (email), and if for some reason it cannot be granted then I trust you, as Chairman, will make sure the state specifies the reasons it is denied so that I may consider that response as being fair or merely arbitrary and capricious when a nearly 20 year old precedent exists on this matter.

 

Sincerely,

 

L. Ray Brown, Jr.

212 Walnut Creek Drive

Goldsboro, NC 27534

919-922-9387




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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.



Replies:
Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 11:57am
Great letter with a prudent request that the Chairman should address posthaste.

Glad to have you back!  The resource needs your voice here for all to see.


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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: TomM
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 12:51pm
welcome back


Posted By: cnaff
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 1:25pm
Thanks for coming back, Ray. Especially as you give us pause to consider suing the MFC if they can't strap on "fair". I guess the word on here is Bizzell might have the aptitude to operate in a more above board manner than his predessesors, yet my gimlet eye will only believe what it sees, at this late date. BTW, how is it that they bastardized the inland AC in the first place with comms? That AC was evidently conceived as a counterbalance to the coastal stakeholders, representing no financial interest on the coastal resource, but rather the interests of no coastal citizens who might wish their voices be heard. They jank us around and we beg to be stuck again.

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V/H Dog


Posted By: bakesta
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Ray Brown Ray Brown wrote:

  Seeing that my credentials were still good I am glad to be back.



You were gone?   Where did you go?Wink


Nice letter.  It's now time for the chair of the MFC to do something significant to QUICKLY help the resource.  Excuses will no longer be acceptedShocked


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"Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." --- Mark Twain


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 2:09pm
Thanks, but not about any of us as individuals guys.  It's about restoring and then keeping our marine fishery stocks as viable as possible while at the same time enjoying them for fun, consumption, and commerce where possible with reasonable harvest amounts and reasonable and practical harvest methods.

Silence gets you squat.  Call or write, or better yet, visit your local legislator the next time they are near by and they are all near by now as the voting season is upon us.  Let them know what you think and tell them your vote is earned, not granted because they are already in office.


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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: cnaff
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 5:00pm
If your rep is coastal, it seems more like you're yelling down into a echo chamber that screams back how stupid you are to try to get an intelligent response. Same thing if you report abuse. Try alerting the DMF to the sop abuses of certain groups by whom they are regulatorily captured. The silence is deafening, and readily connotes hostility from the agency you've wasted time contacting. It's as if you are beholden to the state Soviet, and bring threats upon yourself for trying to help them do their damn job of following the law to stop abuses. Then you realize that you ARE a damned nitwit to think that ANYONE is concerned about the reality of the depleted condition of these resources and then you know you're about a fool to think it's OK to say a damn thing to anyone in a position to do something about it. The onus is upon the political appointees to make clear that they are above board on conservation, and by stony silence they tend to confirm that they ARE NOT. It is long past time that THEY produce evidence that it's even safe to say a damn thing inconsistent with the utterly excreble hive mind that has been in place for so long, it's petrified into the fabric of our being. I'm not predicting the bright future at the mercy of our coastal brain trust, I'm just telling you about past performance, and actual experience. The zeitgeist of this state is hate for anyone says anything other than the industry's s..t doesn't stink. The burnings and vandalism seem awfully close to policy, frankly, and I would suggest that coastal citizens who openly contemplate conservation ethics are making themselves vulnerable to that policy. I think the commander of the gorillas in Beneath the Planet of the Apes was correct when he stated that in NC, " the only thing that counts is power. Naked, merciless force." Prove us wrong, please!






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V/H Dog


Posted By: cnaff
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 5:12pm
And it is about individuals, who constitute tiny minorities totally screwed by the system and its adherents. Where justice would take reflection about the individual expectation to be protected from fraud and abuse, it would be reasonable to see that individuals be actually protected. And here, THAT is what is beyond the pale. No good faith. No useful law. No mercy for the non corporate citizen. No fish, in a society that prides itself on fish! An edifice founded on lies and built up on a mythological love for the water, where the holy sacrament is consistently dragged to death until its head falls off.


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V/H Dog


Posted By: BaitWaster
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 7:06pm
Interesting observations on the make-up of the initial Inland ACs and reconfiguration. 

I was on the Inland AC from 2002-2004 and additionally attended a number of meetings in Raleigh afterward.  The only commercial member of Inland, from my memory, was Jimmy Nobles. 

For Finfish (2004-2009) and the Red Drum FMP (2007-2008) ACs, the make-up was as you suggest with recs, commercials and scientists.


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I'm not here for a long time, but I'm here for a good time.

The days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days - Ray Wylie


Posted By: TomM
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 8:58pm
And what were the recommendations to the mfc


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 30 August 2018 at 9:47pm
That didn't take long. Here is the initial reply from chairman Bizzell and I appreciate his response.

"Ray, good evening. And good to hear from you. I am currently looking at the makeup of the AC’s and their chairs. I am particularly looking at attendance and trying understand the duration of service that has been assigned. Counsel is helping me with this. I am mandated to have fair and equitable representation from all interested groups, which should, as best as possible, mirror the makeup of the MFC. When I first served as chairman, there were probably 50+ applications on file. This time there were just a handful. That is why I sent out a request for applications to serve on AC’s this week, which is over a month earlier than when normally asked. I urge all who care about the resource to apply. We will not have a need for their work for at least few months, so this should give everyone an adequate opportunity to be part of the process, and for me to give very careful consideration as to who will serve. You mentioned the inland committee. At this point in time I have no interest in reforming that, or any new AC. I believe anyone that could serve on those committees can serve on the existing ones and have an equal impact.


I appreciate private citizens, such as you, that care enough about the resource to be vocal. I encourage you all to do so. There are a lot of issues to be addressed. Input from citizens, such as you, is an important part of the process. Thanks for the interest and take care. Rob

ps share this with who you wish

Consider it shared!



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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: cnaff
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 9:08am
The message missing from the MFC chair and the previous MFCs is the annunciation of the will to reform fisheries and conserve fish. That is consistently omitted by this state organ, and the intention seek AC players is not conservation, it is wallpaper. The worthless giration of the process perpetuates more giration. We need a concerted, directed effort, which would have to include a change in tone from the body, about the direction of the body. Else we are similarly afflicted by the depletion we already find ourselves within. The corporate bastards took this thing by using the state apparatus. How does this change? Hope ain't a strategy.

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V/H Dog


Posted By: FishCommander
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 9:29am
cnaff ..... Thumbs Up Clap


Posted By: bakesta
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 9:58am
Originally posted by cnaff cnaff wrote:

    the intension to seek AC players is not conservation, it is wallpaper.



Well said!!



Since when has an AC had any impact on making things better?? 

AC advice has been used to continue maximum harvest and  ignored when commercial harvest cuts are recommended.


The only thing that is a bigger waste of time effort than an AC is fishing the western Pamlico right now.  And those 2 issues are linked.



The ACs aren't going to fix the current problem.  Only an MFC that votes for immediate change will help and so far that has never happened.















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"Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." --- Mark Twain


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 10:40am
So guys, I guess the state of NC can not count on you to volunteer and serve on an AC in order to change the dynamics of the system. Am I hearing you correctly? If only those who want status quo participate then that is the recommendation the MFC gets and what the legislature and governor hears. The past is past and you can see the MFC is going to balance these AC's so that the days of a stacked deck against the resource are gone.

And if there are no volunteers to fill the AC's then the governor and DEQ secretary will see that as no interest. And those that show interest will be heard.

Internet rhetoric is interesting, but it is what you do away from here that really matters.

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: bakesta
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 11:46am
I've been pondering this and having the ACs mimic the MFC sounded good at first but now I"m not so sure.

Why not have them stacked??     


With scientists.


5 scientists, 1 comm, 1 rec


If they are charged to improve fish stocks then the recommendations would be good ones.


With the current plan, we'll have 3 comms who will be united. They will always vote together for more harvest.   They then only need 2 out of the remaining 6 votes to be sympathetic (i.e. BW) and they have a majority.


If you want status quo, appoint 3 comms, 3 "recs", 2 at large, and 1 scientist.   Those who have been stacking the deck forever will easily find 2 votes out of the 3 "recs", 2 at large, and 1 scientist.


5 scientists, 1 comm, 1 rec might work.  

Then again, if the MFC just ignores the ACs (like they mostly always have) and vote for what is right, then the problem is fixed.


Sorry - i just see the ACs once again being used to stall progress and preserve status quo.  The MFC knows the issues - the problems are BLATANT -- they need to fix them.  











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"Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." --- Mark Twain


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 12:28pm
Bakesta….the MFC can not change FRA '97. Until that is changed the system is what it is so you can either be part of it, barnacle about it, ignore it, or whatever.

For anyone out there who wishes to volunteer and I know some have since the earlier post this morning. Please go to the link below and at the bottom of the page you can print out a Word or PDF application and where to send it is explained.   You can ask for a specific committee or simply say you'll help where needed. Shrimp is coming up I'm sure and others will be too as well as replacements for others as people drop out.

You are reimbursed for mileage and meals in certain circumstances so the only thing this will cost you is your time. If you aren't willing to give up one night a month as an Advisor then I honestly do question how sincere you are in wishing reform to occur unless you have a physical or business reason that precludes you from driving at night.

http://portal.ncdenr.org/web/mf/mfc-advisory-committees" rel="nofollow - Application info for MFC advisor

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: Get Bowed Up
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 1:08pm
Dare county resident, can't be trusted, definitely applying ;)

On a serious note, is there any difference between "stacking the deck" between one "group" or the other in the eyes of fairness or what should be right when dealing with a public trust resource?

I'd like to see the removal of the "influences" on all of these boards and commissions that are tasked with best use of /management of something that is of equal share to everyone. How is the question, maybe dreaming. *I don't mean removing industry representatives*


Posted By: BrackishWater
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 1:20pm
"A fight not joined is a fight not enjoyed." John McCain

You cannot expect the system to change if you are not willing to bring the change to the system.


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A rising tide lifts all boats...


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 3:33pm
Billy....you may be surprised that I agree with you to a great degree on that issue, but more along economic terms. Ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you I have been pushing one idea about MFC membership for years after pointing out how it differs from any other commission in NC.

The MFC is the only commission I am aware of that mandates you must have a financial interest in using the item being managed to be a member.   Which, by any definition says that at least 4 members must have a potential financial conflict of interest to begin with and if the scientist sitting on there makes money from studying the issue then that number has moved to 5 and suddenly people with a financial interest have a majority control of the MFC. Name one other commission that is charged to regulate an industry where a member of that industry are making rules on the commission where public trust resources are being sold or tax dollars are being spent?

You can't build roads for a living and be on the NC Department of Transportation Commission.   You can't own an ABC permit, nor can your spouse, if you sit on the ABC board. Should I go on? I think most folks knew this.

So my spill has been for years...…"No person who profits from the harvest and sale of a marine resource or who sells goods and services used in harvest to those that do, should be allowed to serve on the MFC board. Nor should any immediate family member of those meeting that initial requirement be allowed."

So...no commercial fishermen, no fish dealer or processor, no net makers, boat makers, rod and reel salesmen or manufacturer, fishing tackle dealer, or guide or charter boat captain or mate. Pier owners and employees of fishing advocacy or lobbying groups would also be included and several other classifications that I may be forgetting. None of them should be on the MFC and have the last say because everyone of them has a financial interest in what the MFC's vote may or may not do.

So none of these are to be on the MFC if I had my way for that one simple reason.   That leaves 99.9% of our population to draw from with no financial conflict possibility. That's over 10 million nice folks, I bet we could find 9 with ease that just want to manage a viable resource.

But what about those folks excluded from the MFC, should they have input? Absolutely, that is what advisory boards should be about. Explaining their needs, wants, and participation process. If their case is strong enough, and the biology of the resource is strong enough, and if the state's intended use of the resourced aligns, then the harvest is crafted from their input. The how much, and when, and with what gear, still remains the absolute call of the MFC after hearing from the advisors or after the advisors show and justify what they are asking can work. As an example....the shrimpers should put the MFC on a trawler and trawl with old gear on one side and recommended gear on the other and the MFC has absolute and immediate confirmation of what that advisory group is recommending or if it simply doesn't do what the claims say.   Very simple, very straightforward.

So under my vision....four of the current seven would not qualify nor would the next two commercials to be appointed. Kornegay (who is retired), Koury, and Hendrickson are the only three that could stay on. Chairman Bizzell, unless he has let it go, owns a commercial fishing license and thus has a potential economic conflict and would not qualify as long as he holds a commercial license.

The ownership of a recreational license would not exclude anyone, because everyone is treated equally under them without any caveat and no financial interest in that harvest and at least for one day of the year everyone in NC can fish without one.

So as you can see.....I want everyone involved, but at the end of the day I think letting those with a financial interest in the outcome of the vote has not and never would set well. Except for the MFC, the state of NC seems to feel the same way in any other area where public trust resources or tax dollars are up for grabs so at least in my view it is time that marine resource harvest is treated the same way.



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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: cnaff
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 3:51pm
You can't expect a corrupted organ to "heal" itself and start behaving without proper "treatment". The more time and disorder or corruption that takes place, the lower the probability that the organism, or organization can EVER be made well again, and only the dim witted expect the thing to get its sh!t together without the strong hand of a reforming executive or governing body. The body won't adopt conservation and say it out loud? STATUS QUO! By any stretch, the MFC must be made a safe place to conduct scientific and conservationist management, which is a diametrically opposite direction to what it's been doing for conscious memory. This change is the only one that can possibly pull small comm's nuts out of the corporate fire they might have supported, and it's damn sure the only way that anglers and other stakeholders will ever see a decent divergence from the shrimp-hegemony of the corporate scorched earth boocrap we are consistently fed in lieu of resource management. I don't mean to degrade bizzy's effort to be where he is, I just think the whole damn process needs a fire lit under its ass! The governor is minimally engaged, evidently, so the idea of make some damn useful changes to the trajectory of the thing will come from us, or EXPECT the wrath of me and anybody else who wants the state employees, MFC members and the Deq to do their damn jobs and conserve the resource. As it is, we get the Klausewitzian stiff arm from a government of hogs who even set up a secret DMV office in Raleigh, to satisfy their above it all attitude, PRECISELY the way the DMF has stuck it to us for decades, but because attention will find the dmv issue by sheer dint of numbers of people who hate the dmv, the dmv will get the therapy that is woefully missing in the fishery process. We have every reason to consider a body to continue in its corrupt trajectory when we are without any tacit recital or demonstration that reform and rehabilitation of lost fishery abundance is paramount. No other regime need apply. And, no, you wouldn't trust me to play well in that rarified air because it's a boiler room where fisheries go to die, as far as it looks to me. We have watched as they DIED at the hands of this state, its employees, and the lesser gods they serve. But it sure ain't us, or the resource that has guided the hand, and without determined, explicit change, then the discussion here will be THE ONLY PLACE WHERE A SOLUTION HAS BEEN PROPOSED.

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V/H Dog


Posted By: cnaff
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 3:59pm
And speaking of Klausewitz, John McCain never met an interventionist war he didn't love. And what about those POW-MIAs he helped to leave in Indochina? They are in the same place as the fishes of North Carolina, dead and gone, and lied about as if the guys that did the deal are the heroes! Well they are not heroes who would take your fishes or sons and spread them upon the ground and tell you it was on YOUR behalf that it was done, when the true reason is nothing but darkness and corrupted self-enrichment.

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V/H Dog


Posted By: marker39
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 5:40pm
No way in Hades would I ever serve on another AC under the current system.

During my two stints on the SE AC we dutifully went to our monthly meetings, met for 2-3 hours, discussed the issues that were assigned to us, and made our recommendations to the MFC.

Over time I noticed that no one on the MFC ever asked about our position on ANYTHING.

In fact, they would sometimes ask at MFC meetings how a particular AC voted on an issue that was being discussed.

In other words, they never bothered to check how a regional AC felt about an item that affected their area the most!

I once made a motion at one of our meetings that we request feedback from the MFC on our "recommendations". At least then we would know they had at least taken time to read them.

It passed unanimously because recs and comms alike on our committee were tired of being ignored.

Guess what.

The MFC never responded..........

BW #2


Posted By: chasintrout
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 8:34pm
Why have ac’s? Why volunteer to be part of them? It was clear the Mfc didn’t listen to their recommendations. The mfc is stacked just how the cca wants it. It’s a joke to even waste your time being part of it!


Posted By: jtoler
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Why have ac’s? Why volunteer to be part of them? It was clear the Mfc didn’t listen to their recommendations. The mfc is stacked just how the cca wants it. It’s a joke to even waste your time being part of it!

As I attended a few AC meetings, it was crystal clear that the commercial fishing industry made decisions based entirely on personal gain. Not one instance of regard for the health and viability of the resource did I witness. Your perspective is completely opposite of mine, yet we are talking about the same thing. If the CCA had as much influence as you imply, there would be no problem making a living entirely from commercial fishing, nor would the status of any state managed finfish or shellfish be anything other than... we got a ballyhoo load of 'em.

'ballyhoo load" was not what I typed. Sugar, Honey, Iced, Tea


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Jill
Fly Fishing, messing with my mind since 2007.


Posted By: Get Bowed Up
Date Posted: 31 August 2018 at 10:12pm
Ray, not surprised at all, some form of common ground understanding is a starting point to what can be productive conversation and possible action.

Marine science, as many scientists have harped to me, and as I continue to see while being apart of my first SEDAR stock assessment, comes with a lot of uncertainty, some fisheries have a lot more than others and having those in both industries is important in helping fill in the gaps. But, I see your point.



AC's and public comments, I advocated and will continue to do so, that IF an AC's recommendation and or large number of public comments say +50 comments are not adopted than either a letter of explanation from the chair, or individual commissioners shall be disbursed to the public within 14 days. And not just "bc X Made a motion and it passed 5 to 4". This for no other reason than to acknowledge the input of AC's and the public and provide clear documented rationale, it is a real problem when people feel there is no reason to be apart of the process bc their input or recommendations aren't even acknowledged. Yes, there is discussion on topics during the MFC meetings but like the comments in this thread support what I hear often "their minds are made up before the meeting." I believe they should explain their votes and reason for or against in these circumstances, if it requires more of their time, longer meetings, so be it, I think it's important.


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 11:20am
I apologize for not answering you sooner Billy. Please understand these are my thoughts and I do not speak for any group or entity. I am a simple NC citizen that is guaranteed the right to have an opinion. 😀 As are all of us.

Advisory boards are just that, advisors. There is nothing in the law anywhere that says the MFC must adopt the recommendations of an AC. As frustrating as that is to accept, it is paramount that it remain that way as NC has applied the law in order to get objectivity.

Let me give one example and it has to do with the complaint that began this thread. I served on both shrimp AC's. Let's talk about the objectivity of managing shrimp based on the recommendations of that committee. It began with 15 members. Three individuals who we shall call recreational anglers. One scientist. One channel netter. The other ten either trawled for shrimp or were married to someone who did. The committee made almost all recommendations that amounted to status quo. Two of the three recs resigned and were never replaced. On the last night, without the scientist in attendance, I was the only one voting that had no financial interest in shrimping. Were we really an objective advisory board?

The second shrimp AC had nine members. Five involved with the shrimp industry. Four who did not. The minutes will show a plurality of 5-4 votes. The DMF chose the co chairs with one to represent recreational sector and one the represent the commercial sector. Half way through we found that the DMF chosen co chair for the recreational industry owned a commercial fishing license in NC. He had disclosed it on his application and they put him there. The chairman of the MFC at the time is our current chairman and was never told when he signed off that the individual held that license. Nor was the director. A staffer did it. A staffer still employed.

So, until the chairman rearranges these committees to bring them back to the objectivity the law demands then,"no" there is no way I would bind the MFC to the words of an advisory board. They have become enablers and not advisors in many cases by the way they are currently manned. It appears the chairman is applying lessons learned the first time around.

Unfortunately, some of the folks that could help the chairman in this transformation are evidently choosing not to help him.

I hope I was clear in my thoughts.

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: Get Bowed Up
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 5:32pm
No problem at on timing of reply. Please don't think my thought is founded in the belief the MFC should be mandated to adopt AC's suggestions. But, as the chair disclosed, he use to have several applications on file, now he has very few. That's a real problem.

I believe the resource, users, and industry all benefit from an educated and involved public.


Posted By: jtoler
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by Get Bowed Up Get Bowed Up wrote:

No problem at on timing of reply. Please don't think my thought is founded in the belief the MFC should be mandated to adopt AC's suggestions. But, as the chair disclosed, he use to have several applications on file, now he has very few. That's a real problem.

I believe the resource, users, and industry all benefit from an educated and involved public.

Until those educated and involved members of the public fall victim to the criminal retaliations and/or publicized threats on their life, home, pets, and personal property. The commercial fishing industry players have been allowed to do what they do for so long with so little consequence, they truly believe that they are entitled to have whatever they want, no matter what it does to the resource or the environment.


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Jill
Fly Fishing, messing with my mind since 2007.


Posted By: TomM
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 9:17pm
So true-no prosecutions


Posted By: bakesta
Date Posted: 02 September 2018 at 10:43pm
The marine fisheries reform needed in North Carolina will not come from ACs.

The votes for reform are supposedly on the MFC right now.   But they have not voted.  If they are now going to claim that they are waiting for advice from an AC, then they are just stalling.  


There are very BLATANT issues that need to be addressed immediately.  JUST DO IT ALREADY. 


Or tell us once again why we need to wait for............  the next meeting - the short session - the election - the DMF - the long session - the FMP - the new appointments - the solar eclipse - the monkey to fly out of my butt ..........................

Do it.




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"Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." --- Mark Twain


Posted By: Get Bowed Up
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 8:11am
Originally posted by jtoler jtoler wrote:


Originally posted by Get Bowed Up Get Bowed Up wrote:

No problem at on timing of reply. Please don't think my thought is founded in the belief the MFC should be mandated to adopt AC's suggestions. But, as the chair disclosed, he use to have several applications on file, now he has very few. That's a real problem.

I believe the resource, users, and industry all benefit from an educated and involved public.


Until those educated and involved members of the public fall victim to the criminal retaliations and/or publicized threats on their life, home, pets, and personal property. The commercial fishing industry players have been allowed to do what they do for so long with so little consequence, they truly believe that they are entitled to have whatever they want, no matter what it does to the resource or the environment.




Are you saying you or someone you know were victim's of these actions and law enforcement/judge wouldn't do anything bc they people were commercial??? S



Posted By: jtoler
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 10:31am
I am saying that the described behavior is commonplace and reality. Slashed tires at boat ramps, on the water incidents that come very close to causing the loss of life, threats of property damage and/or loss of life if evidence of illegal activity is made public. Much like "bycatch" drum and striper being taken, packed, and shipped under the cover of darkness, the above mentioned incidents take place in the same manner. It's nothing more than a report; if that, made to a local law enforcement officer after the incident has occured. Then it's high fives and "atta boy" congratulatory pats on the back to the offender.  

Now let's get to the law enforcement/judge criminal investigation and conviction business. 
Cue the crickets. 

Are you applying to be on an AC? 





-------------
Jill
Fly Fishing, messing with my mind since 2007.


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 11:06am
GetBowedUp

Billy...I don't believe you've replied to my post below.  For someone that has strong "broad" opinions...why don't drill-in on some specifics by addressing the following-

Originally posted by Rick Rick wrote:

Originally posted by Get Bowed Up Get Bowed Up wrote:

If you truly believe in something, you should be willing you put your name on it.


So...Billy, as a person who lobbied hard to get the recreational industry seat that went to Cameron Boltes and one obviously interested in "fisheries issues" that doesn't mind sharing his opinion, I would be interested to know your detailed thoughts on-

1- Inshore shrimp trawling
2- The large mesh southern flounder gillnet fishery
3- Expanding pound net southern flounder fishery
4- Expanding water column leases north of Core Sound
5- Zero reported annual landings on close to 60% of all active SCFL/RSCFL
6- The CSMA Striped Bass Fishery
7- Allowing non-resident commercial fishermen to do in NC waters what they can't do in their home state





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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Get Bowed Up
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 11:36am
Originally posted by jtoler jtoler wrote:

I am saying that the described behavior is commonplace and reality. Slashed tires at boat ramps, on the water incidents that come very close to causing the loss of life, threats of property damage and/or loss of life if evidence of illegal activity is made public. Much like "bycatch" drum and striper being taken, packed, and shipped under the cover of darkness, the above mentioned incidents take place in the same manner. It's nothing more than a report; if that, made to a local law enforcement officer after the incident has occured. Then it's high fives and "atta boy" congratulatory pats on the back to the offender.  

Now let's get to the law enforcement/judge criminal investigation and conviction business. 
Cue the crickets. 

Are you applying to be on an AC? 





I believe I will and have encouraged many others to do so as well. I'm on two AP's at the fed level but one is being removed due to removing cobia to the AS.


Posted By: FLOUDERMN
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 11:57am
Originally posted by jtoler jtoler wrote:

I am saying that the described behavior is commonplace and reality. Slashed tires at boat ramps, on the water incidents that come very close to causing the loss of life, threats of property damage and/or loss of life if evidence of illegal activity is made public. Much like "bycatch" drum and striper being taken, packed, and shipped under the cover of darkness, the above mentioned incidents take place in the same manner. It's nothing more than a report; if that, made to a local law enforcement officer after the incident has occured. Then it's high fives and "atta boy" congratulatory pats on the back to the offender.  

Now let's get to the law enforcement/judge criminal investigation and conviction business. 
Cue the crickets. 

Are you applying to be on an AC? 



Oh horse hockey,has any of the mess you speak of happened to you or are you just repeating what others have told you?Funny thing thats not happening up this way and everyone knows Dare County has all the bad apples so ya'll say anyway!!
 


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18 PRIVATEER 26ft Willis Harkers Island 27ft Broadwater                 commercial fishing support it or import it


Posted By: TomM
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 12:13pm
Bad apples everywhere flounder and documented. Tires slashed boat lifts vandalized nails in driveways. Threats on phones and in person. Sad


Posted By: Get Bowed Up
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 12:25pm
Dear "Rick", I must give you credit for taking as long as you did to once again copy and paste your comment where you wrongly accuse me of doing something I did not do. For the record that was the bases for my comment, and ask you either edit the comment or stop reposting.

Again, if your going to name someone by name and accuse them of something on a highly view website, I believe the accused should know who is making the accusation & the accuser should be willing to put their own name on the line. However the rules of this site do not require such and I'll just have to accept that.

I do hope you had a great weekend and maybe we can meet (again?) At the November MFC meeting where I will be happily sitting in the designated public seating area. ;)


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Get Bowed Up Get Bowed Up wrote:

you wrongly accuse me of doing something I did not do. For the record that was the bases for my comment, and ask you either edit the comment or stop reposting.

Billy- I've asked you this before for which you failed to respond.  Are you denying that you filed an application to be considered for the Recreational Industry Seat on the commission?  Are you denying that you actively sought that position?  Did others seek that position for you on your behalf?



-------------
fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: jtoler
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by FLOUDERMN FLOUDERMN wrote:

Originally posted by jtoler jtoler wrote:

I am saying that the described behavior is commonplace and reality. Slashed tires at boat ramps, on the water incidents that come very close to causing the loss of life, threats of property damage and/or loss of life if evidence of illegal activity is made public. Much like "bycatch" drum and striper being taken, packed, and shipped under the cover of darkness, the above mentioned incidents take place in the same manner. It's nothing more than a report; if that, made to a local law enforcement officer after the incident has occured. Then it's high fives and "atta boy" congratulatory pats on the back to the offender.  

Now let's get to the law enforcement/judge criminal investigation and conviction business. 
Cue the crickets. 

Are you applying to be on an AC? 



Oh horse hockey,has any of the mess you speak of happened to you or are you just repeating what others have told you?Funny thing thats not happening up this way and everyone knows Dare County has all the bad apples so ya'll say anyway!!
 

How I wish none of it were true floundermn. I'll give you one to ponder. Myself and a friend attended the big meeting in New Bern regarding nursery areas in estuarine waters. As we were walking up to the door to enter the convention center, there were people congregating adjacent to the entrance. Those people were handing out stickers for folks to wear. The sticker indicated that the person wearing the sticker supported shrimp trawling as it is and desired no changes. We both declined the sticker. At a break in the meeting, my friend got up to go to the restroom. If you have ever been in the ladies room when it is crowded you know that there is a lot of chatter, observations, and displays of true character; women are not always sugar, spice, and everything nice. During this simple trip to the restroom, my friend was called the "B" word by another woman who was wearing a sticker and noticed my friend was not. 
Classy, don't you think.


-------------
Jill
Fly Fishing, messing with my mind since 2007.


Posted By: jtoler
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 8:48pm
Personally, I will be glad when the "user conflict" method of fisheries management is laid to rest and the "for the good of the resource" method is employed. 
Every person who fishes either commercially or recreationally should have more than a few questions for the DMF, MFC, each AC, and the legislators who suddenly have an interest in fisheries management. Why aren't our state managed fish in better shape? What is each of those entities doing to restore the stocks? Who is against restoring the stocks and why? At this point, there should be so much data that identifies the problem, and if our state agency can't suggest a solution, well, maybe we should find someone who will help. Does anyone actually believe that DMF staff don't know how bad it is? More importantly, why haven't they done their best to correct it? 
The whole thing reminds me of a little kid who doesn't want to eat what's on the supper plate. Just push it around the plate and hide it under the mashed potatoes. It's time to clean the plate y'all!


-------------
Jill
Fly Fishing, messing with my mind since 2007.


Posted By: FLOUDERMN
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by TomM TomM wrote:

Bad apples everywhere flounder and documented. Tires slashed boat lifts vandalized nails in driveways. Threats on phones and in person. Sad
Funny thing is we have just as many Recs and Comms putting over at ramps here and none of this happens here like ya'll claim now Duck season is a diffirent story!I think you boys and girls like to speak of what you have heard about happening not knowing if it truth or not but since a Commercial Fisherman was mentioned ya'll run with the BS spreading horse hockey.Just like every other story by the time it reaches the 4th and 5th person only about 15% of the story is correct!!

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18 PRIVATEER 26ft Willis Harkers Island 27ft Broadwater                 commercial fishing support it or import it


Posted By: Get Bowed Up
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 10:30pm
"Rick", I've addressed what parts of your statements are false, if you wish, your more than welcome to message, email, or call me as as I told so few of my applications it appears you maybe aware of something I am not. Unless you have other motives for your repeated attempts to seemingly "out" and or discredit me? Either way, it's a side show to the real issues.

Thanks


Posted By: FLOUDERMN
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by jtoler jtoler wrote:

Originally posted by FLOUDERMN FLOUDERMN wrote:

Originally posted by jtoler jtoler wrote:

I am saying that the described behavior is commonplace and reality. Slashed tires at boat ramps, on the water incidents that come very close to causing the loss of life, threats of property damage and/or loss of life if evidence of illegal activity is made public. Much like "bycatch" drum and striper being taken, packed, and shipped under the cover of darkness, the above mentioned incidents take place in the same manner. It's nothing more than a report; if that, made to a local law enforcement officer after the incident has occured. Then it's high fives and "atta boy" congratulatory pats on the back to the offender.  

Now let's get to the law enforcement/judge criminal investigation and conviction business. 
Cue the crickets. 

Are you applying to be on an AC? 



Oh horse hockey,has any of the mess you speak of happened to you or are you just repeating what others have told you?Funny thing thats not happening up this way and everyone knows Dare County has all the bad apples so ya'll say anyway!!
 

How I wish none of it were true floundermn. I'll give you one to ponder. Myself and a friend attended the big meeting in New Bern regarding nursery areas in estuarine waters. As we were walking up to the door to enter the convention center, there were people congregating adjacent to the entrance. Those people were handing out stickers for folks to wear. The sticker indicated that the person wearing the sticker supported shrimp trawling as it is and desired no changes. We both declined the sticker. At a break in the meeting, my friend got up to go to the restroom. If you have ever been in the ladies room when it is crowded you know that there is a lot of chatter, observations, and displays of true character; women are not always sugar, spice, and everything nice. During this simple trip to the restroom, my friend was called the "B" word by another woman who was wearing a sticker and noticed my friend was not. 
Classy, don't you think.
Did you see it or hear it yourself???No you didn't your friend could be telling little fibbs the old saying comes true believe nothing you hear and half what you see and trust no one!!Wink

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18 PRIVATEER 26ft Willis Harkers Island 27ft Broadwater                 commercial fishing support it or import it


Posted By: jtoler
Date Posted: 03 September 2018 at 10:58pm
No, no floundermn, I made her swear it on a stack of bibles. Wink

-------------
Jill
Fly Fishing, messing with my mind since 2007.


Posted By: kshivar
Date Posted: 04 September 2018 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Ray Brown Ray Brown wrote:

Bakesta….the MFC can not change FRA '97. Until that is changed the system is what it is so you can either be part of it, barnacle about it, ignore it, or whatever.

For anyone out there who wishes to volunteer and I know some have since the earlier post this morning. Please go to the link below and at the bottom of the page you can print out a Word or PDF application and where to send it is explained.   You can ask for a specific committee or simply say you'll help where needed. Shrimp is coming up I'm sure and others will be too as well as replacements for others as people drop out.

You are reimbursed for mileage and meals in certain circumstances so the only thing this will cost you is your time. If you aren't willing to give up one night a month as an Advisor then I honestly do question how sincere you are in wishing reform to occur unless you have a physical or business reason that precludes you from driving at night.

http://portal.ncdenr.org/web/mf/mfc-advisory-committees" rel="nofollow - Application info for MFC advisor
   My app is in. i hope to be chosen


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 04 September 2018 at 1:26pm
Good for you and good luck on being chosen.

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: francoind
Date Posted: 06 September 2018 at 2:52pm
I have been vandalized on the water but as soon as they realized "Mr. Ruger" was my lawyer, they backed off. Has happened twice, but not for a long time. Nobody wants to attack a crazy man.




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fiogf49gjkf0d
A FISHIN ROD and a BROKEN HEART


Posted By: BrackishWater
Date Posted: 13 September 2018 at 10:11am
I put out a little weekly e-newsletter I call Carolina Tidelines that goes out to over 100,000 email addresses. I can give you plenty of examples of threats and intimidation Flounderman. This is just the latest example:

Thu 8/30/2018 12:12 AM
awh6045@gmail.com
Re: Carolina TIDELINES (‎8/29/2018)

You are a loser, do the world a favor and Kill yourself 

Sent from my iPhone



Thu 8/30/2018 12:18 AM
awh6045@gmail.com
Re: Carolina TIDELINES (‎8/29/2018)

Gosh I have so much more to say but do ME a favor and commit suicide  

Sent from my iPhone


I have no illusions that everyone agrees with everything I write, but this is the type of discourse I receive from commercial supporters.




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A rising tide lifts all boats...


Posted By: cnaff
Date Posted: 16 September 2018 at 9:39am
Interesting tactic that the antagonist uses. It's quite a bit like the promise of Caligula used often in Robert Graves's work about Caesar Augustus's family in administering Rome. But the implication was much bigger than, "...go kill yourself!" You see, the emperor made his "suggestion"fast with the promise that praetorian guards would follow you home to make sure you completed the deed. That is absolutely the implication here, that the antagonist will assuredly continue with his program, all others be damned. And the program is supported by the state, just in case you don't disappear by your own hand...... Which brings up the idea that AC participants are allowed to know that they can always just go away, and since they face the thinly veiled wrath of a shadow organization backed by the power of the state, fade away they evidently always do. That, my friends, is corruption writ deep in the fabric of our society, and it cries out for sunshine and fresh air. Let''s have some suggestions for staffing these positions. I nominate Nancy Fish for the commander of the praetorian guard. But that job floats well according to the situation, so, certainly the well formed enunciation of the MFC chairs has been in this spirit as well. Ol' scienops used his semi-anonymous ID here to threaten me over joint enforcement, and Corbett the Just seemed to have that in him, any flies off that wall still flitting around?

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V/H Dog



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