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The So Flounder Supplement as passed

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Topic: The So Flounder Supplement as passed
Posted By: Chuck Laughridge
Subject: The So Flounder Supplement as passed
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 4:57pm

o        All commercial fishing and recreational fishing will observe a 15-inch minimum size limit beginning Jan. 1, 2016

o        Minimum mesh size for anchored large-mesh gill nets is 6 inches effective Jan. 1, 2016.

o        Anchored large mesh gill nets and trammel nets in the southern flounder fishery will close Oct. 16 – Dec. 31 statewide. Gear removed from water.

o        Flounder pound nets will be subject to a 5 ¾-inch escape panel and will operate under a Total Allowable Landings of 38 percent reductions based on 2011-2015 pound net landings. The Total Allowable Landings will be based on the water body where the pound nets are set, as presented by DMF by February 2016 meeting (assumes that the Total Allowable Landings equals the Total Allowable Catch).

o        Commercial gig fishery will close when Total Allowable Landings is met.

o        Recreational hook-and-line and gig fisheries will close Oct. 16-Dec. 31

 Good Fishing!!!




Replies:
Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 5:21pm
The guts of the pound net rules-

Link to complete presentation-
http://portal.ncdenr.org/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=277a4bc0-5e1d-4c02-8ebf-96226d96753e&groupId=38337" rel="nofollow - http://portal.ncdenr.org/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=277a4bc0-5e1d-4c02-8ebf-96226d96753e&groupId=38337

Do keep in mind that the Dealer reporting requirement has now be shifted to the fisherman.













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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 5:41pm
Now, it is not as simple as things look above with an estimated  early to mid-October closure.

  • Total landings are down, the fish are depleted.
  • How much will gill net effort decrease? Those are fish the pound nets can land helping to fill each group's quota.
  • The data above is based on a 14" fish. Commercials are now at 15".
  • The data above is based on all groups fishing a full season.  A group will close as their quota is reached.
  • The data above is based on unlimited harvest.  History shows people will game the system when it is to their advantage. A quota will be the reason to game the system.
  • To what extent people game the system remains to be seen and difficult to quantify.


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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 5:46pm



You can look at this chart and see how recruitment overfishing has truncated the age and size structure over time. 

15" = 381mm      

14" = 356mm 

There are a lot of flounder that were kept at 14" that will not be kept this year with a 15" minimum size limit.  We as recreational anglers know how hard it is to land a 15"+ flounder.  That fact alone will keep the gear in the water longer than the data above suggests.  The season may never close if there is much "gaming" that goes on. 









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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 6:29pm




The flounder stock has been fished so low, it may take years for it to recover with proper management, and management is not there yet.  There is a good possibility of the need for further cuts.  The southern flounder fishery is a prime candidate for limited entry.  Pound nets are already there due to the gear cost and permitting requirements.  The gig fishery is so small that it will be easily managed.  We will get an anchored large mesh gill net ban in NC. When that happens, this fishery needs to go to limited entry with assigned quota pounds to individual fishermen based on individual trip ticket landing data.  Those that game the system now, will be left out in the future.  The tragedy of commons says they will not be able to help themselves from gaming the system. 

Those individual quotas should belong to the state and be assigned to the fisherman.  When that fisherman retires, his assigned quota should be removed from the commercial side and given back to the resource unless there are commercial fishermen asking for a pound net permit or a gigging permit.  Those individual quota pound and permits should be assigned from the state at fair market value.  The actual gear should be the retiring fisherman's property to sell.

That system can be gamed as well. 

Simple fix-  If you violate the rules your permit is suspended for one year with total gear removal required.  You violate the rules again and your permit is permanently revoked and your gear must be removed from the permit site.


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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: TomM
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 6:55pm
Yep


Posted By: Chuck Laughridge
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 7:54pm
Great posts, Rick.  Thanks!

Good Fishing!!!


Posted By: Glacierbaze
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 8:00pm
I am not agreeing, or disagreeing, with the individual quota system, but in the event that it does happen, those quotas should go to fishermen in boats, and not for sale or tranfer.  Not to fish house owners, or any other individuals or corporations, who buy them up and make a profit out of subletting or leasing them. Use it or lose it, back to the state pool.


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"You can never elevate your own character by stepping on someone else's."

"Never argue with a man who loves the sound of his own voice."


Posted By: BaitWaster
Date Posted: 31 August 2016 at 8:55pm
Rick's 'I have a dream'.

Do agree with revocation of permit with improper/incomplete/non reporting.

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I'm not here for a long time, but I'm here for a good time.

The days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days - Ray Wylie


Posted By: todobien
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 8:28am
Rick - were the landings in that report including the "corrected" numbers or was it prior to the "correction?"


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 8:29am
The chart below shows that pound netters will be sorting through as much as 30% undersized fish in their catch.










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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 8:37am
Originally posted by todobien todobien wrote:

Rick - were the landings in that report including the "corrected" numbers or was it prior to the "correction?"


That I can't answer for certain, but given the date on the presentation linked above I would say these are the "uncorrected" numbers. 

From the news letter below, the correction is a 4% increase.  A 4% overall increase changes the total quota to 443,573 from 426,513. 

NCDMF uses an axe as the sampling tool and measures the results with a micrometer.  What the heck does 4% matter in this game of imprecision?  That's assuming that 4% is an accurate number for the corrected increase.

Maybe someone can ask Kathy Rawls for the corrected numbers.

From a NCFA News Letter:

o Landings Corrections:
During the development of the recent flounder pound net quota, several commercial fishermen were concerned that the pound net harvest was under reported resulting in a smaller quota. Some commercial fishermen reported that landings of flounder from their trips were incorrectly recorded as being from gill net gear and not pound net gear. Staff sent out 163 certified mail letters on May 27, 2016. Shortly after the letters were mailed and delivered, staff started receiving calls from fishermen asking about the letter and how they needed to proceed. Fishermen were instructed to review the data mailed to them and send any potential corrections to Trip Ticket staff. Some fishermen visited their seafood dealers about corrections and received signed letters from the dealers attesting the use of flounder pound nets and gill nets. Several fishermen worked with the Trip Ticket Program’s commercial port agents to review the data and determine the appropriate corrections. Corrections were also verified with Marine Patrol officers who were familiar with the fishing practices of many of the fishermen as well as confirmed with fisheries management biological sampling staff. Once corrections were identified, data were edited by Trip Ticket staff. The Trip Ticket Program received the last set of corrections from fishermen on July 1, 2016. Corrections primarily focused on gear codes changes (e.g., gill nets being corrected to poundnets) and some incorrect license numbers. In total, the division received corrections from 16 commercial fishermen. The corrections resulted in an overall increase of 4 percent for the total southern flounder pound net quota. Quota Monitoring Group 2 saw the largest increase in the quota when looking at specific groups, increasing by 22 percent. Quota Monitoring Group 6 also saw a slight increase of 7 percent. Quota Monitoring Group 5 saw a very slight decline in their quota amount of roughly 1 percent. There were no changes for Quota Monitoring Groups 1 or 4.




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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Glacierbaze
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 8:58am
Chuck, what is the official word on landing an ocean caught 'summer flounder' after Oct. 16?  Do any of the proclamations, or other official documents closing the fishery just say flounder, or do they specify southern flounder?


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"You can never elevate your own character by stepping on someone else's."

"Never argue with a man who loves the sound of his own voice."


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 10:23am
Glacier...I thought we asked DMF officers this last December after the vote and were told that if you had a flounder on board west of the demarcation line you would get a violation since NC manages southern and summer flounder, not by species specific, but where they are in ones possession. You could, for an example, be ok fishing on an ocean pier, but if you had jigged a wreck and then were floating an inlet on the way back in for anything with those flounder on board you'd be subject to the closure.   Obviously the intent was to close everything, why would we save the fish on the inside to merely catch them on the outside where they are going to spawn during this period.   I sat right there and was amazed the DMF staff did not point that out to the MFC....biologists should have picked up on that first before gubernatorial appointees. I would have hoped the MFC would have done a "technical correction" and cleaned this up, but you and I both know that if anyone had suggested modifying what was passed in any way that the doors to major change would have flooded open. Not perfect, but best ever as is so let's not screw it up and wait for stock assessment next year where the best of what we have done can be made permanent and corrections made if the assessment merits.

Rick....as we discussed yesterday. I'm still saying the law of averages on data based solely on weight which is what the DMF has always used already has weather events, size changes, etc. built into the numbers.   The cutoff is going to be four or five days either side of November 1 for pound nets in total. Not even going to try on regions.

Also...the folks making sure they get credit for proper gear know the future. Limited entry is coming and any fisherman not recording his/her catches now will suffer greatly when those numbers are the basis for a personal quota. No one to blame but themselves if they were to lose out for their own actions down the road.

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: todobien
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 10:35am
I'm with you Rick. The changes made will make it hard to estimate - different size escape mesh and different minimum size so different weights.


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 10:43am
Guys....might as well make a "game" of it in terms of guessing the date rather than fussing about what a perfect situation would be.

With changes in gear, and lack of summer time gillnets, then there should be more and larger fish in the water in terms of availability for pound nets even if total numbers are down.

I'm saying Oct 23.

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: Stump1187
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Ray Brown Ray Brown wrote:

Guys....might as well make a "game" of it in terms of guessing the date rather than fussing about what a perfect situation would be.

With changes in gear, and lack of summer time gillnets, then there should be more and larger fish in the water in terms of availability for pound nets even if total numbers are down.

I'm saying Oct 23.

I wouldn't bet on that. 


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 11:31am
My guess is Nov 1st.

The 15" fish will give a 9% reduction.
A Nov 1st closure will give a 28% reduction.

That's close enough to 38%.

The increase CPUE in the pound net fishery due to landings reductions in the gill net fishery and recreational fishery will be lost to additional unreported landings in the pound net fishery.




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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Stump1187
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 11:34am
I'll go out on a limb and say that there will be no closure for them at all. Why? Tropical storms, small fish, fish too large, divine intervention, there will be a 'reason' that they cant meet their quota and they need to keep fishing. 


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 11:52am
Want to bet on that?

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Stump1187 Stump1187 wrote:

I'll go out on a limb and say that there will be no closure for them at all. Why? Tropical storms, small fish, fish too large, divine intervention, there will be a 'reason' that they cant meet their quota and they need to keep fishing. 



Look at this daily landings in pounds chart during the 1998 season.  In one day there were approximately 170,000 pounds landed in the pound net fishery.  That is almost 40% of the current quota landed in one day.

Eyeballing an Oct/Nov average, it appears to be in the 30K daily range. 




How can anyone look at this chart and not expect the pound net season to close some time during mid-October?  But then you have to factor in the group area closures mentioned above.





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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Chuck Laughridge
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Glacierbaze Glacierbaze wrote:

Chuck, what is the official word on landing an ocean caught 'summer flounder' after Oct. 16?  Do any of the proclamations, or other official documents closing the fishery just say flounder, or do they specify southern flounder?

It is my understanding that "flounder" brought to the dock from Pamlico Point or AR 330 (past the 3 mile limit) on Oct 16 of 2016 will earn a citation for reasons Ray referred to above.

Good Fishing!!!  


Posted By: Stump1187
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Rick Rick wrote:

Originally posted by Stump1187 Stump1187 wrote:

I'll go out on a limb and say that there will be no closure for them at all. Why? Tropical storms, small fish, fish too large, divine intervention, there will be a 'reason' that they cant meet their quota and they need to keep fishing. 



Look at this daily landings in pounds chart during the 1998 season.  In one day there were approximately 170,000 pounds landed in the pound net fishery.  That is almost 40% of the current quota landed in one day.

Eyeballing an Oct/Nov average, it appears to be in the 30K daily range. 




How can anyone look at this chart and not expect the pound net season to close some time during mid-October?  But then you have to factor in the group area closures mentioned above.




True I guess. People have never tried to play the system in our fisheries... no no no. BTW anybody know how that 9yo girl is doing this season? 


Posted By: Glacierbaze
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 1:05pm
Edit to say, did not see Chuck's reply above, thanks.


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"You can never elevate your own character by stepping on someone else's."

"Never argue with a man who loves the sound of his own voice."


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Stump1187 Stump1187 wrote:

BTW anybody know how that 9yo girl is doing this season? 


At least "she" was reporting her landings when "she" helped bust the red drum quota. 


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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: BaitWaster
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 3:10pm
As always past performance does not necessarily predict future results.  Likely an iterative process with tweaking required. 

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I'm not here for a long time, but I'm here for a good time.

The days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days - Ray Wylie


Posted By: Big Basstard
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 3:21pm
...along with at least 30 years of "horse trading"...

By then anyone who remembers this day in history will either be dead or so senile that all memory of "taking it in the shorts" will become a generational thing...

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"ALL TYRANNY NEEDS TO GAIN A FOOTHOLD IS FOR PEOPLE OF
GOOD CONSCIENCE TO REMAIN SILENT".
- Thomas Jefferson


Posted By: Bread Man 1
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 5:24pm
"Lack of summertime gill nets"

If I am not mistaken, A and B are all that is closed right?
No lack of them in the other areas.


Posted By: CapRandy
Date Posted: 01 September 2016 at 11:44pm
Management will never be there

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Murder is killing but all killing is not murder


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 08 September 2016 at 12:08pm
Chuck....gross landing information is public record. The DMF is to obtain daily reporting thus I'm sure they are running a total daily for YTD southern flounder harvest in total and by gear.

As a member of the MFC, could you request that the DMF send you a daily report of the pound net YTD total and then you place that number here daily so any citizen of NC who has interest will know the current count without having to have dozens of phones calls or emails to the DMF daily seeking the same information? While most here can multiply and divide the idea of stating what percent of the annual quota has been landed to date would be nice too.

Thank you in advance for making this happen.

(If they don't want to furnish you this information for this purpose then ask them to simply place it on their website daily for public consumption if they want to handle it totally by themselves. With their responsibility there is no doubt they are computing these running totals daily and the public does have a right to know where the quota stands. Obviously results through yesterday are perfectly ok. It doesn't have to be live.)

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: Chuck Laughridge
Date Posted: 08 September 2016 at 4:52pm
Daily reporting for pound nets started Sept 1 and I will ask.

Good Fishing!!! 


Posted By: skateboy
Date Posted: 20 September 2016 at 10:05am
Where can I find the exact wording for this supplement and when does it go into affect?


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 20 September 2016 at 10:16am
The main part of the supplement is the first post in this thread and it took affect on January 1,of 2016.

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: todobien
Date Posted: 20 September 2016 at 10:19am
Any luck of getting those daily reports or a tally?


Posted By: skateboy
Date Posted: 20 September 2016 at 10:20am
So if that is the extent of the supplement it would appear that a SCFL would keep one in the hook and line flounder game after 10/16?


Posted By: Ray Brown
Date Posted: 20 September 2016 at 10:43am
I think you are correct. Southern flounder may be the only inshore commercial finfish operation that allows a rod and reel harvest. Can't think of another species where it is allowed.

The Director, of course, can declare all harvest methods closed at any time he so chooses if he feels it necessary to rebuild stocks. The MFC would have, I believe, 48 hours to overrule him.

Remember, this is only for calendar year 2016.   The MFC can make adjustments going into 2017, a supplement is not a one and done deal, it remains flexible until a new FMP is finished according to the MFC attorney.

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I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.


Posted By: CapRandy
Date Posted: 20 September 2016 at 8:40pm
Just close it and let the stock rebuild,of course that's not going to happen is it now,bottom has fell out of fishing for most rec in NC anyway

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Murder is killing but all killing is not murder


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 9:55pm
Found this on a Google search. Timely move back to the top with what we know today.



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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 11:47pm
...and this followed-

at the May-2017 Business Meeting the Commission agreed not to use the powers and duties vested to it under- 143B-289.52 allowing it to take temporary management measures.

Moved out of closed session without objection.

Reynolds explained at its last meeting the commission had consented to allow three members, Chairman Sammy Corbett, Vice-Chairman Joe Shute and Commission Mike Wicker, to participate in a Court Ordered mediation and authorized them to reach an agreement-in-principle that, if reached, would be presented to the full Commission for its approval. The mediated settlement conference was held on May 11, 2017 and an agreement-in-principal was reached. Reynolds advised that this agreement-in-principal was discussed during the closed session and that the terms of the mediation agreement will be finalized through a settlement agreement, which includes:
• A 15-inch size limit for southern flounder;
• A 6-inch minimum mesh size for anchored large-mesh gill nets; and
• A 5 ¾ -inch mesh size for escape panels in pound nets.

Additionally, in accordance to the terms of the agreement-in-principle, the commission will not seek to adopt a supplement to the Southern Flounder Fishery Management Plan until it acts to adopt an amendment to the Plan. The agreement-in-principle also required plaintiffs to withdraw their complaint with prejudice and waive and release of any and all claims related to the action that were or could have been brought against the defendants on or before the filing of the plaintiffs’ Amended Complaint (i.e. September 30, 2016).

Reynolds told the commission that these terms will be formalized through an agreement.

Motion by Rick Smith to accept the terms of the agreement reached in principle during mediation on May 11, 2017 pertaining to the matter of CCFA et al vs. NCDEQ et. al which will be finalized with a settlement agreement at a future date. Second by Joe Shute.

Motion carries 8-0 with one abstention. 

The Agreement





















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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 11:51pm
Will DMF and the MFC address the issue now?

Will they fight a lawsuit from the NCFA?

Dead End Road...the can is an the end!

Where we are today, 2.5 years later- a complete MORATORIUM as an option, NO HARVEST FOR ANYONE.

MAY I HAVE A MOTION FOR A VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE IN NC FISHERIES MANAGEMENT! 

Deja Vu weakfish...we almost wiped them out while Bradley Styron and the NCFA fought tooth and nail with multiple lawsuits to keep fishing on that depleted stock.  The weakfish stock has never recovered and has no recovery in sight. 

THE PROBLEM



THE SOLUTIONS










DO NOTHING and FLOUNDER DISAPPEAR IN ABOUT TWENTY YEARS




DO SOMETHING TO MEET STATUTORY REQUIREMENTS






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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: j.willis
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 4:13am
Deleted comment based on Rick's clarification of data posted above.




Posted By: Rick
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 7:16am
J.willis- Those headings are mine. The DMF just presented the slides.

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fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.


Posted By: kshivar
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 10:38am
There is a number of reasons the State will rarely fight a lawsuit very long or vigorously. We need our own meaningful lawsuit against DEQ and DMF. They will either settle or lose if done properly. Virtually no chance to lose unless the action is flawed and dismissed which should not happen.


Posted By: lcg8978
Date Posted: 14 January 2019 at 10:32am
I would gladly accept a complete moratorium on flounder if it applied to recs and commercials. In fact, I would strongly prefer that option to any of the other recommendations. The only hook and line flounder fisheries worth a hoot in SENC are the nearshore reef fish (usually not southern flounder) and the Cape Fear River. 



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