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chriselk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2018 at 8:43am
While banning out of state boats, seems like a good idea, it just may be a "feel good" idea.  The percentage of out of state boats is very small.  They tend to be large boats.  

If this were a negotiating issue, it would not give the resource much relief.  The shrimp petition or something similar would give relief, while at the same time allowing smaller vessels access.  It would not be a "shrimping ban", but an overdue regulation of secondary nursery areas.

Time and area closures in the shrimping industry have been shown to work in the much bigger fleets of the Gulf.  Closure of areas containing juvenile red snapper have been effective in helping recover those fish.  Just ask any gulf fishermen-they can't get away from them now.  

The rules in the NC shrimp petition are similar in concept.

By the way, those gulf rules have not impacted shrimping in TX and LA as their harvests are 10 and 20 times NC shrimp harvest, respectively. 

Food for thought.
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasintrout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2018 at 1:21pm
Take a trip from July through September from one end of Pamlico Sound to another. Over half the boats in that sound are from out of state. That’s just a fact
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2018 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Take a trip from July through September from one end of Pamlico Sound to another. Over half the boats in that sound are from out of state. That’s just a fact
 

I have to agree with chasintrout that close to 50% of the boats in the open waters of the Pamlico on any given day is plausible. 

The Fulchers may have two boats of their fleet this week and two different boats next week.  Total vessels involved for the two week period shows four, but the amount of effort could be equal to two out of state boats that trawled both weeks.  The total number of vessels involved for instate boats is misleading because those vessel don't trawl every week or day.  The out-of-state boats come to stay, as long as the shrimp are here in quantities greater than their home waters, and trawl every week for as many as five days. My personal visuals on these boats is that many show up in July and leave by the end of August...prime time to kill juvenile spot, croaker and weakfish in an undesignated secondary nursery area while doing in NC what they can't do at home. 

I have documented some of it in this thread-

Typically when the DMF queries the Trip Ticket system out-of-state vessel landings get included with instate vessel landings because the DMF queries by resident or nonresident SCFL/RSCFL.  The issue is that some of the out-of-state vessels are "renting" a NC resident license through the Assignment process.  Those landings are reported against the resident holder of the license.  A "license holder" query does not accurately depict instate versus out-of-state landings.

A query of the same data base by a vessel's state of registration shows the following-



You can see in the >55 foot class that 17 out of state boats reported landings of 498,356 pounds in 2017.  

As Chasintrout said, these are mostly big boats working the open waters of the Pamlico Sound.  They do represent a significant % of the bigger boats on the open water on any given day.  The typical number of =/>65 foot boats that I tracked on AIS in the Pamlico this summer is about 25 to 30 total. 

For 2017 estuarine landings, out of state boats reported 615,667 pounds of the 8,803,613 total pounds- about 7%.  As Chris indicted, concerning but not of great significance.  The devil is in the details.






Edited by Rick - 04 December 2018 at 2:22pm
fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasintrout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2018 at 2:45pm
They come here to trawl our inside water because brown shrimp are very seldomly caught in the ocean of those states, including NC. Once brown shrimp hit the ocean the head way offshore out of reach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2018 at 9:17am
While 7% is fairly low, it sort of burns me that out of state vessels are allowed carte blanche trawling access to NC waters but its not reciprocal.  Rick, isn't DMF working on license enforcement for illegal transfers/assignments?

As for the color of shrimp, I don't care if they were purple shrimp with pink dots, its the gear.  Otter trawls, and in this case oceanic otter trawls (and the previous armada of oyster dredges of the last century), have devastated the ecosystem we call the Pamlico Sound.  


The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redfisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2018 at 10:08am

And you think that NC is going to stop out of state trawlers from plowing the Pamilco Sound?  Ha-ha, I say.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2018 at 10:17am
Originally posted by chriselk chriselk wrote:

While 7% is fairly low, it sort of burns me that out of state vessels are allowed carte blanche trawling access to NC waters but its not reciprocal.  Rick, isn't DMF working on license enforcement for illegal transfers/assignments?

As for the color of shrimp, I don't care if they were purple shrimp with pink dots, its the gear.  Otter trawls, and in this case oceanic otter trawls (and the previous armada of oyster dredges of the last century), have devastated the ecosystem we call the Pamlico Sound.  


 

The MFC voted and the DMF agreed to enforce state statute on Transfers.  Basically- Transfers are not allowed except to an immediate family member or due to retirement or death that MUST include the sale of the license holder's vessel.  No more CraigList sales where you or I can just buy a license for $2000 to become a "commercial fisherman" overnight.  If you're not a family member or buying the vessel of a retiring fisherman, or from his estate, you have to go through the pool.

The question is what audits are in place to make sure the DMF is following statute.  History shows the Division's "benevolence" steers them in the direction of exceptions.

Assignments are another issue, which has not been addressed.  The attorneys are again sticking their head in the sand.

State statue specifically prohibits Dual Residency.  When an out-of-state commercial fisherman holding a SC, GA, FLA, etc resident state license comes to NC and "rents" a SCFL through Assignment in order to strike net "mullet" or trawl the Pamlico Sound, he is HOLDING a NC resident SCFL while holding a license from his home state- a violation.

The Division defends the assignment by saying that the "resident licensee" retains all landings data...that "benevolence" again.

State statute/rule specifically prohibits the "holding" of a license under Dual Residency .  A person in possession of a license, "holding", is eligible to all the benefits conveyed by such license.  

Rule requires that the transferee have in his physical possession the SCFL/RSCFL while actively engaged in commercial fishing- the act of "holding a license".   

"Holding" is "Holding".  

There is violation of (d) if a non-resident commercial fisherman, licensed in another state, is assigned a resident NC license and holds that license while actively engaged in commercial fishing in NC waters.

§ 113-168.1.  General provisions governing licenses and endorsements.
(b) Licenses Required to Engage in Commercial Fishing. – It is unlawful for any person to engage in a commercial fishing operation without holding a license and any endorsements required by this Article. It is unlawful for anyone to command a vessel engaged in a commercial fishing operation without complying with the provisions of this Article and rules adopted by the Commission under this Article.

(c) Licenses, Assignments, and Endorsements Available for Inspection. – It is unlawful for any person to engage in a commercial fishing operation in the State without having ready at hand for inspection all valid licenses, assignments, and endorsements required under this Article. To comply with this subsection, a person must have any required endorsements and either a currently valid (i) license issued in the person's true name and bearing the person's current address or (ii) SCFL and an assignment of the SCFL authorized under this Article. It is unlawful for a person to refuse to exhibit any license, assignment, or endorsement required by this Article upon the request of an inspector or other law enforcement officer authorized to enforce federal or State laws, regulations, or rules relating to marine fisheries.

(d) No Dual Residency. – It is unlawful for any person to hold any currently valid license issued under this Article to the person as a North Carolina resident if that person holds any currently valid commercial or recreational fishing license issued by another state to the person as a resident of that state.


The US Constitution has something called Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1 known at the Privileges and Immunities Clause.  It basically says you can't treat an "out of state" person trying to conduct commerce "unfairly" as compared to a NC resident trying to conduct the same business.  If you allow your resident citizen to do it, you have to allow the non-resident to do it.  

The clause is being broadly interpreted in this case because NCDMF, NCDEQ, NCDOJ and the Governor do not have the intestinal fortitude to do what is right- enforce state statute and risk a lawsuit and fight a lawsuit.  

Status quo to enable over-capacity in all our fisheries- keep gear in the water.

Who benefits?  The dealers!  

Who loses?  The resource and the actual NC resident working waterman trying to make a living.  

Why does the Privileges and Immunities Clause not apply?  Because state statute does not prevent out-of-state commercial fishermen from coming into NC waters.  Statute and Rule specifically allows it.  It's called an out-of-state license.

Non-residents can obtain a SCFL just as easy as a resident- from a family member, through the purchase of a vessel (with license) from a retiring or the estate of a deceased holder, or from the pool.

Statue and Rule allows for the conversion of a state license to a non-resident license by paying a fee- the cost difference in the pricing structure.

You can see the license pricing structure in this link and screen shot below-


http://portal.ncdenr.org/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=bd56d861-16f9-4605-9a6c-a4f4c1be95ce&groupId=38337


By allowing assignment of a resident license ($400 annual fee) to an out-of-state fisherman the Division could be giving up significant per license revenue by losing the balance of the reciprocal fee charged NC fisherman in that state.  


Example: A Florida resident "rents" a NC license through the Assignment process and becomes the "holder" of a NC SCFL.  The Division received an annual renewal fee of $400 from the NC resident who is the licensee.  By statue the Florida fisherman should have paid $1350 which is what Florida charges a NC resident to fish in Florida's state waters.



Reciprocal licensing agreements are well founded in federal law and DO NOT violate the Privileges and Immunities Clause.








Edited by Rick - 05 December 2018 at 11:25am
fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.
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kshivar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2018 at 10:43am
Originally posted by kshivar kshivar wrote:

Originally posted by kshivar kshivar wrote:

I wrote Bryant and have gotten no reply. In their arrogance they don’t care what we want or think. They just want re-election. Let’s do our part to make this good for nothing governor a one term waste of our time.
I wrote him again and he did reply. He told me what a great job they were doing and that it “has only been two years.” I told him I disagreed about them doing a good Job. The new Director has clearly aligned himself with commercial interests, we continue put and take on stripers and trawling is killing the important nursery in Pamlico Sound. I have not had a response to that. Pondering a class action lawsuit against DEQ and DMF. Suing commercial fishermen more problematic and not sure of a cause of action. Sue the State and settlement is almost guaranteed for a couple of reasons.
There has not been one response to this on this site. So is all this chatter on here about saving the resource just bloviation? Waste of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FishCommander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2018 at 10:53am
 The discussions continue as the resource continues to decline. Everybody on here knows what needs to
happen to facilitate change and it is not going to happen in the NC Legislature. Wink Joe Albea
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2018 at 1:44pm
Thanks, Rick, I knew you would know!
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcg8978 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2018 at 3:24pm
I thought they stopped the third party SCFL sales as well, but a quick scan of craigslist shows a half dozen for sale right now just on Wilmington craigslist. Also, the prices seem to have remained about the same (~2k). I wonder what would happen if I tried to buy one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2018 at 3:35pm
Yeah...I did the same looksie last week.

I hope those are just uninformed people and the deals fall through when they have to sign the affidavits listing the family relationship or show proof of sale of the vessel. 

This should explain it-



Edited by Rick - 05 December 2018 at 3:42pm
fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.
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