FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Sniff Test- Bycatch Reduction Trials

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Rick View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 16 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sniff Test- Bycatch Reduction Trials
    Posted: 15 May 2018 at 8:30am

Noun

sniff test (plural sniff tests)

  1. (idiomatic) An informal reality check of an idea or proposal using one's common sense or sense of propriety.






N.C. Marine Fisheries Commission To Consider Changes To Shrimp Trawling Industry

The North Carolina Marine Fisheries Commission plans to discuss and possibly vote on new gear requirements in the shrimp trawl fishery at their quarterly business meeting in New Bern on Wednesday and Thursday.  

A three-year study identified four new gear configurations that reduce finfish bycatch by at least 40 percent.  The North Carolina Division of Marine Fisheries, NOAA Fisheries and N.C. Sea Grant worked with commercial fishermen and local net makers to test 14 different trawl net configurations.

“Each time that we met, they would define what gears to be tested and, you know, as the three-year process went on, we started seeing some devices that showed more promise and we started focusing our efforts on those type of devices.”

Kevin Brown, gear development biologist with the North Carolina Division of Marine Fisheries says nearly 314,000 pounds of fish and shrimp were sampled during the study.  

“Typically, when these bycatch reduction certifications are done, you subsample.  Typically, you have one observer on board and he samples both catch… But since the industry had some reservations about the subsampling process, they requested that we whole haul sampled, which we felt met our needs and gave them some more ownership in the process.  So we did that but we had to put two observers on board just to handle the amount of material that we weighed and measured.”

Brown plans to present the findings to the commission on Thursday for possible management action.  If the new gear requirements are approved, it would change the bycatch reduction devices that are allowed in the Pamlico Sound.

The gear combinations that achieved at least a 40% reduction in finfish bycatch include:

1)      Double federal fisheyes, 1 7/8-inch tailbag, and 4-inch TED

+     Reduces finfish bycatch: -40.8%

+     Net gain in shrimp observed: +1%

+     Reduces culling time due to less bycatch

+     Potential to catch larger shrimp

+     Implements actions of Amendment 1 to the Shrimp FMP

-           Costs associated with purchasing and installing gear: +$600 per net

-          Untested on smaller vessels and in the Atlantic Ocean

2)      Double federal fisheyes, 1 3/4-inch tailbag, and 4-inch TED

+     Reduces finfish bycatch: -57.2%

+     Reduces culling time due to less bycatch

+     Implements actions of Amendment 1 to the Shrimp FMP

-      Observed shrimp losses greater than 5%: -12.1%

-        Costs associated with purchasing and installing gear: +$600 per net

-        Untested on smaller vessels and in the Atlantic Ocean

3)      Double federal fisheyes, 1 3/4-inch tailbag, and 3-inch TED

+     Reduces finfish bycatch: -44.9%

+     Reduces shark bycatch: -18.6%

+     Potential reductions in debris and jellyfish

+     Reduces culling time due to less bycatch

+     Observed shrimp losses greater than 5%: -4.9%

+     Implements actions of Amendment 1 to the Shrimp FMP

-             Costs associated with purchasing and installing gear: +$1,250 per net

-             Potential fouling issues in areas and times of high grass concentrations

-             Untested on smaller vessels and in the Atlantic Ocean

4)      Single state fisheye, 1 ¾-inch tailbag, and Virgil Potter BRD

+     Reduces finfish bycatch: -43.2%

+     Reduces culling time due to less bycatch

+     Implements actions of Amendment 1 to the Shrimp FMP

-             Costs associated with purchasing and installing gear: +$800 per net

-             Observed shrimp losses greater than 5%: -5.5%

-             Untested on smaller vessels and in the Atlantic Ocean



...and note above that finfish bycatch increases when going from a 4" TED to a 3" TED.  That is completely contrary to other bycatch reduction trials.

As you can see below, even the NCDMF identified a 3" TED as one of the preferred second BRDs that could be used to meet bycatch reductions-





Edited by Rick - 15 May 2018 at 9:23am
fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.
Back to Top
kshivar View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2004
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 9:18am
How about we ban trawling in Pamlico Sound? Problem solved.
Back to Top
Glacierbaze View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 09 January 2005
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 3786
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Glacierbaze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 10:10am
"...which we felt met our needs and gave them some more ownership in the process."

Why should the fox be given ownership of the hen house?I still want to see peer review for these studies, If one negative comment was enough to scuttle the flounder study, let see how this one flies.
"You can never elevate your own character by stepping on someone else's."

"Never argue with a man who loves the sound of his own voice."
Back to Top
Redfisher View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 09 May 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 404
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redfisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 10:18am

Who were the observers?
Back to Top
cwilli View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 634
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cwilli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 10:25am
I thought Brown eliminated certain bycatch species in his study.
Wouldn't the reduction of what they counted naturally reduce the bycatch total?
How did they achieve a 40% reduction when the entire industry has not been able to find a method to achieve a result to reduce 5,10,20 or even 30%. The process seems flawed when there is a lack of transparency to how they collected the data. In the age of technology, cameras to film each haul would go a long way in helping support and verify data collected - if it's all legit...who would have an issue with it? It doesn't pass the smell test until there is full transparency.   

It will be an utter disappointment if the results are voted on and approved without time for everyone to fully vet out the process and methodology.

Edited by cwilli - 15 May 2018 at 10:38am
Back to Top
chasintrout View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 12 December 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasintrout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 10:35am
They could totally ban trawling in nc waters and y’all would still b*tch.
Back to Top
cwilli View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 634
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cwilli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 10:44am
I would assume you support full transparency of the data?

Since you refuse to believe 25+yrs of scientific data collected by the State of North Carolina, I guess you think we should gladly accept the data and it's conclusions from the commercial fishing industry about bycatch reduction WITHOUT the opportunity to review and hold discussions.

Back to Top
Rick View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 16 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 10:46am
You should read the MFC briefing book info starting on page- 451 


It appears that SeaGrant (NC Commercial Fishing Extension Agency) guided the trials in 2016 and 2017 after this discussion on NCW about the 2015 trials-



From a memorandum in the MFC briefing book for this week's meeting-

May 16, 2018 

MEMORANDUM 

TO: Marine Fisheries Commission 

FROM: Chris Stewart, Shrimp Species Lead Jason Rock, Shrimp Species Co-Lead Kevin Brown, Gear Development Biologist Fisheries Management Section

SUBJECT: Shrimp Fishery Management Plan Workgroup Update

 

....In 2015, only Penaeid shrimp and finfish were recorded; non-shrimp invertebrates, elasmobranchs (sharks/rays), and miscellaneous categories were added for the 2016 and 2017 testing. 





fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.
Back to Top
kshivar View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2004
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 10:50am
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

They could totally ban trawling in nc waters and y’all would still b*tch.
   Not I.
Back to Top
Ray Brown View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar
NCW FOUNDER

Joined: 14 July 2003
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 14573
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 10:54am
There were no "concerned about the affects of bycatch" observers allowed, even though requests were made by the CCA and others to provide observers.

I, along with Joe Albe and Francoid, served on the shrimp AC and all three of us will tell you that this was to have been a bycatch reduction test in NC waters.  In other words, testing what we were using on one side of the boat versus other combinations on the other side.  And done in real world shrimping scenarios.  That is what the industry told us at the AC level when they proposed the study.

When the motion was made at the MFC level a state employee was allowed to word the motion and in doing so the intent of the MFC was lost and the study became one of testing gear under a NOAA protocol to test By Catch Reduction Devices.  (BRDS)  I am not going to say that it was intentional, but it changed the type of study and focus that was going to be done.

That changed everything.  Only one net on each side of the boat was being tested against one on the other side, not both sides of the boat at the same time as the MFC thought they had authorized. That is what would happen in real world use.  Real world study gave way to technical study which allows for "tuning" of nets to assure optimum results, and most of all there is direct reference in the groups minutes that shows that when tows were "too fishy" or had too many fish in it they simply released the haul rather than bring it on board and count the results. 

There are direct reference where certain types of bycatch were not counted even though in the real world that bycatch would be there and mostly likely dead.  Obviously it is easy to reduce bycatch if you don't count it.

At the end of last year one boat owner made a comment that any observer would be welcomed on his boat, but when he said that the on water work was over.  There are written records where non involved observers were denied access.  I'm sure liability issues will be the excuse even though volunteer observers offered to sign waivers.

I hope the MFC does two things.   Adopt the most stringent method that was identified as being mandatory while at the same time mandating that the work done to date be peer reviewed by scientists not involved in NC along with bringing studies done worldwide on the affects of trawling on entire biomass into the management conversation for NC.  Just because a study has never been done in NC regarding long term affects on biomass doesn't mean that studies done on the same type of gear being pulled through the water isn't applicable to some degree here.

My guess is that a car that gets stuck in the mud will get stuck in the mud no matter whether the mud was caused by rain, melting ice, or steam from a volcanic vent.   But I'm also sure that those trying to avoid blaming melting ice would argue and sue to not have it identified as such.

I applaud on one hand the shrimp industry's attempt to reduce bycatch, but at the same time the fact that people like me could not be on board to see it unfold means the work is clouded in suspicion simply based on many years of comments about what bycatch is or isn't.  

I have to say it....."any group that is so focused on "open meetings" by state officials regarding the rights of the public to know the truth such as the NCFA, to the point they will sue; and then that same group refuses to allow 3rd party observers to oversee a testing of gear meant to harvest a public resource is just wrong by any stretch of law or common sense.  They expect to be treated one way and then demand that people who regulate them are treated a different way."

We North Carolinians are a gullible bunch for letting this happen year after year.



Edited by Ray Brown - 15 May 2018 at 10:58am
Some trawl operator will be forced to change in order to reduce bycatch. If you worry about that more than stopping the bycatch then the resource is secondary to you. Recovery has one less advocate.
Back to Top
Rick View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 16 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 11:10am
I must say it...

Why should the public feel that a 3rd party observer is necessary?

IF THE DIVISION WAS DOING ITS JOB by adhering to the core principles of its Vision Statement, then the trials had an "independent" observer onboard- one dedicated to sound data gathering and objective analyses.




SeaGrant is a different story.  The whole organization should be defunded in my opinion.

That agency has conflicting goals.  There appears to be strong fences dividing independent objectives that are preventing synergy supporting sustainable fisheries- a goal that should be at the top of the pyramid with all others being subservient.





Edited by Rick - 15 May 2018 at 11:16am
fiogf49gjkf0d
NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.
Back to Top
themoose View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 15 October 2014
Location: Forsyth County
Status: Offline
Points: 876
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote themoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

They could totally ban trawling in nc waters and y’all would still b*tch.


Personally....

What I think would be appropriate would be to
- Ban all otter trawls in NC
- Allow seine trawling for shrimp in the ocean
- Ban gill nets
- No additional pound nets
- Ban netting of striped bass

That would be a good start.

Oh yeah, and to make confiscation of boat and jail time mandatory for willful violations of the rules. ie: you ban gill nets, you catch a joker using one, he loses his boat and gets to spend the next year turning big rocks into little ones at taxpayer expense.
Back to Top
Stump1187 View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 24 April 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 840
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Stump1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

They could totally ban trawling in nc waters and y’all would still b*tch.

Why don't we try it and find out?
Back to Top
chasintrout View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 12 December 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasintrout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 2:38pm
Because there’s thousands of jobs on the line not to mention 10’s of thousands of people who want fresh shrimp. That’s a pretty good reason.
Back to Top
Stump1187 View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 24 April 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 840
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stump1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Because there’s thousands of jobs on the line not to mention 10’s of thousands of people who want fresh shrimp. That’s a pretty good reason.

So how do other states get fresh shrimp if they have no trawling in inside waters? Guess there is a shortage?
Back to Top
Redfisher View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 09 May 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 404
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redfisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Because there’s thousands of jobs on the line not to mention 10’s of thousands of people who want fresh shrimp. That’s a pretty good reason.

Lie and another lie.

It's all you have.  Sad.
Back to Top
chasintrout View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 12 December 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasintrout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2018 at 6:47pm
Well I think it’s a lie that the shrimp trawlers are killing all the spots croakers and grey trout
Back to Top
23Mako View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 01 February 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 559
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 23Mako Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 6:45am
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Because there’s thousands of jobs on the line not to mention 10’s of thousands of people who want fresh shrimp. That’s a pretty good reason.

Yes hopefully before too long it will get to this:

https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/31/us/northeast-cod-fishing-cuts/index.html

I will wait for the fake news comment in 3 2 1....
Back to Top
chriselk View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 22 November 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3389
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 8:00am
Originally posted by Stump1187 Stump1187 wrote:

Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Because there’s thousands of jobs on the line not to mention 10’s of thousands of people who want fresh shrimp. That’s a pretty good reason.

So how do other states get fresh shrimp if they have no trawling in inside waters? Guess there is a shortage?

If ALL the shrimp harvested in NC staying in the state, on GOOD years, the amount of shrimp harvested would supply almost 25% of the shrimp consumed in NC.

I don't know if you would call that a shrimp shortage, but NC fishermen just cannot feed their own citizens with local seafood.

The same is true for finfish.  For example, take speckled trout.  If ALL specs were kept in NC for consumption, that would be 0.01 lb per person per year.  (about 100,000lbs annually, divided by NC Population of 11 million).

About the same for red drum.

Marine foraging in NC cannot supply the needed seafood for NC alone. 


Edited by chriselk - 16 May 2018 at 8:02am
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
Back to Top
kshivar View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2004
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 9:38am
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Because there’s thousands of jobs on the line not to mention 10’s of thousands of people who want fresh shrimp. That’s a pretty good reason.
   Ten’s of thousands? How about ten’s of dozens. Lies and exaggerations are an integral part of the comms playbook.

Edited by kshivar - 16 May 2018 at 10:19am
Back to Top
Redfisher View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 09 May 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 404
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redfisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 9:52am
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Well I think it’s a lie that the shrimp trawlers are killing all the spots croakers and grey trout

Of the 22 state managed shellfish and finfish stocks, only 4 are listed as viable.

You're delusional.  
Back to Top
hghcpa View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 18 July 2003
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hghcpa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Redfisher Redfisher wrote:

Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Well I think it’s a lie that the shrimp trawlers are killing all the spots croakers and grey trout

Of the 22 state managed shellfish and finfish stocks, only 4 are listed as viable.

You're delusional.  



Wow - which are the 4 that are viable ?
Back to Top
kshivar View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2004
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 11:05am
Clams, pin fish, lizardfish and fish sticks.
Back to Top
chasintrout View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 12 December 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasintrout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 12:41pm
Well if it’s only tens of dozens then y’all bunch of high paid babies ought to buy what folks are left out. Problem solved!
Back to Top
marker39 View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 10 May 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 843
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marker39 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 6:58pm
I suppose you want CRFL monies to pay for that.

Oh, but we are the greedy ones.

BW #2
Back to Top
Stump1187 View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 24 April 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 840
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stump1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Well if it’s only tens of dozens then y’all bunch of high paid babies ought to buy what folks are left out. Problem solved!

I'd for one be glad to put you on welfare if it saves fisheries.
Back to Top
kshivar View Drop Down
Pro
Pro
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2004
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 9:17am
Originally posted by Stump1187 Stump1187 wrote:


Originally posted by chasintrout chasintrout wrote:

Well if it’s only tens of dozens then y’all bunch of high paid babies ought to buy what folks are left out. Problem solved!


I'd for one be glad to put you on welfare if it saves fisheries.
There already is a welfare program. It’s commercial striped bass (stocked) season.
Back to Top
Stump1187 View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 24 April 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 840
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stump1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 8:23am
Hey, those guys from N.C. Fishery Management and You 2 are over here taking screenshots, everybody wave!
Back to Top
23Mako View Drop Down
Pro
Pro


Joined: 01 February 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 559
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 23Mako Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Stump1187 Stump1187 wrote:

Hey, those guys from N.C. Fishery Management and You 2 are over here taking screenshots, everybody wave!

It is amazing that 3/4 of their admins on that page don't even live in NC!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.11
Copyright ©2001-2012 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.