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Ray Brown View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 4:50pm
Are they GMO oysters or not?

It'll be interesting to hear the answer to the question posed in this promo. If they aren't, what are they?



GMO or not?

Edited by Ray Brown - 12 February 2018 at 4:50pm
Some trawl operator will be forced to change in order to reduce bycatch. If you worry about that more than stopping the bycatch then the resource is secondary to you. Recovery has one less advocate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 7:32pm
The researcher from UNC-W answered the GMO question by saying... "no more than your tomatoes". You did a good job Ryan.

I eat GMO stuff all the time, but when you saw the size difference in one year between the native and the patented one it does raise an eyebrow.
Some trawl operator will be forced to change in order to reduce bycatch. If you worry about that more than stopping the bycatch then the resource is secondary to you. Recovery has one less advocate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willis1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 7:54pm
Ray if you are wondering whether triploid oysters are GMO, the answer is absolutely not. They just have an extra set of chromosomes, for a total of three, rather than the usual pair of each chromosome type. That odd number of sets of chromosomes means that they can not reproduce. The energy, etc. that they'd normally use to reproduce instead just goes into growing larger. 

Lots of crops and seafood are triploid. Commercial bananas are triploid and that's why they don't have seeds (just those tiny black specks) - they have to be propagated by cuttings. Seedless watermelons are triploid. Same goes for some seedless tomatoes, and other crops. Some trout grown in commercial hatcheries are triploid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by Ray Brown Ray Brown wrote:

Ryan....I understand what is going on, but don't tell me about "sterilization". The people who provide the spat will tell you quite honestly that between 90 and 100% of the total batch are sterile. The same thing they told my neighborhood about grass carp when we introduced them to clean up filamentous algae from the lakes. Those 10%'ers are powerful; they bred.

But if you really want to have some fun let's talk about the law and oysters in NC. The law was changed last year to aid the oyster industry. One of the supposed safety factors was the implementation of the rule that said oyster spat could only be imported from Virginia or SC, and no where else.

Why? Supposedly because they test oysters before they are sent out.   But in typical form it seems that some oysters coming from Virginia are really from Washington state which is a variety of the Pacific or Asian oyster that caused our die offs in 2002-6 when they were transplanted here.

Technically they are "shipped" from Virginia before coming here which conforms with NC law, but there is a strong current of understanding going on right now that when the agency in Virginia, that is in charge of testing these oysters only checks for disease within them....it doesn't check for species.

Again, I'm all for the positive things about oysters and aquaculture that you mention. However, NC's history of fishery management by legislative micro management keeps me leery of things being as they are. Why was the law changed last year just in time for Cooke Aquaculture to show up in NC?

I don't think WRAL's piece is going to do much more that show that NC's oyster future is based on a GMO. They are aware of what happened with Asian oysters in NC during the early 2000's and are still reviewing what is being seeded in NC now, but doubt any of that comes up tonight.

In 2009 the state of Virginia banned Asian oysters from Chesapeake Bay.

They do have oyster research facilities they fund through VIMS.   (Virginia Institute of Marine Science) Early in the 2000's the state of Virginia gave the oyster industry three years to prove that Asian oysters did no harm in order to be permitted.

If you want to really enjoy a good story, find out how that experiment to prove something for the state of Virginia, was done in Masonboro Sound, NC!

All the oysters died in that test including most of the native oysters surrounding that experiment from a virus NC said they didn't know existed in our waters. That sounds good until you back up and realize those native oysters that weren't dying before the Asian's showed up suddenly died too. A layman would say that virus was not in the water, but rode in with the new oysters.

NO....I don't like the for profit industry writing fishery laws in NC to govern themselves (shall we call it the Murphy affect), or legislators who write laws for industry during the last few days of their term. They have nothing politically to lose by being loose with facts.

More on this later today, or this week as more information comes from someone involved at the moment.


I dont think the issue of sterile oysters can be compared to sterile carp.

The species of oysters allowed is only the Eastern oyster.  If a few are not sterile no big deal.

The reason for introducing sterile oysters is that they grow much faster, do not put a lot of energy into reproduction (in the warmer months) and taste better (its about the glycogen stores).  

If we were introducing non native oysters, I would be concerned.  But from what I have been told, that ship has sailed.
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 8:36pm
Chris. WRAL specifically said tonight that NC is allowing non native oysters to be placed in NC, unlike Gulf states who do not. Go to their website and watch the video.

The ones they showed tonight are the ones patented originally at VIMS.

Edited by Ray Brown - 12 February 2018 at 8:39pm
Some trawl operator will be forced to change in order to reduce bycatch. If you worry about that more than stopping the bycatch then the resource is secondary to you. Recovery has one less advocate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TomM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 8:51pm
According to Allen the guy that did this for the difference in size is not like that presented.i think we need beds of native oysters in beds that are not disturbed. Most of our oysters come from va and they don't get to be palm sized in a year. Tasty tho
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 9:38pm
Ray,
The eastern oyster (Crassostrea virginica)—also called Wellfleet oyster, Atlantic oyster, Virginia oyster, orAmerican oyster—is a species of true oyster native to the eastern seaboard and Gulf of Mexico coast of North America.  So bringing in this species from VA to NC is not considered non native, any more than the speckled trout that migrate from VA to NC.

This is the only oyster species that is allowed in NC to my knowledge.  There has been selective breeding to produce faster growing and disease resistant Eastern oysters.  They are still the same genus and species.

Oyster larvae technically can go from SC to NC via currents.  We do not consider them non native.

If folks wanted to import west coast oyster of a different genus and species, that would not be allowed and considered non native.

WRAL is just wrong calling Crassostrea virginica non native.

The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bakesta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 9:40pm
I watched the video and I'm not sure if they are GMO.  Not enough details were given.

But I don't really care as long as they are sterile and disease free.

With that fast growth, they are obviously the future of oyster harvesting in NC.  

Are those the ones that are going to be planted in all of these new water column leases?

If yes - I see $$$$$


and that means ---- more water column leases.Confused


If this all really gets going, oyster rustling will be a huge business in our lawless marine waters.





"Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." --- Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 11:01pm
Lots of lower busted lower units, torn up hulls and tickets for trespassing on private water in NC's near future.

We I am we have miles and miles of existing bottom leases not being worked properly, if at all. And here comes more in these already crowded tiny bodies of water......

All for an individual private monetary gain. None of this has a damn thing to do with habitat. I guess everyone has already forgotten our shellfish moratorium of the past. Was not long ago. And things are worse now than then as far as oysters. Just another NC management OOPS!!!!

Edited by Bread Man 1 - 12 February 2018 at 11:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2018 at 11:21pm
I don't remember the specific years but I remember not going clamming with my grandfather because of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 8:59am
Aren't hybrid striped bass that folks say is an alternative to wild striped bass GMO?

I thought the segment was covering lots of info and didn't really dwell or bring one thing out other than the oysters will grow quickly which will be good for the farmer and the consumer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:05am
Good for the "farmer" and his bank account. The consumer is not going to magically start consuming more oysters. You like oysters or you don't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:14am
Originally posted by todobien todobien wrote:

Aren't hybrid striped bass that folks say is an alternative to wild striped bass GMO?

I thought the segment was covering lots of info and didn't really dwell or bring one thing out other than the oysters will grow quickly which will be good for the farmer and the consumer.


...no more than a mule was GMO.  Hybrid does not equal GMO.

For you young guys, the mule I'm talking about isn't made by Kawasaki.  It is the cross between a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). A horse has 64 chromosomes, and a donkey has 62. The mule ends up with 63. Mules can be either male or female, but, because of the odd number of chromosomes, they can't reproduce. 




Edited by Rick - 13 February 2018 at 9:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Bread Man 1 Bread Man 1 wrote:

Good for the "farmer" and his bank account. The consumer is not going to magically start consuming more oysters. You like oysters or you don't.


No the consumer gets a better and larger oyster, oysters are sold and purchased in quantity not weight, so this will benefit the consumer as well.  Sorry if you don't like it but this is the future of mariculture along the coast.  NC just happens to be behind the other east coast states in terms of leases and production.  VA has a thriving maricultured oyster industry and it is cleaning up their waters tremendously.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:46am
I stand corrected. I knew the cross and used to ride on one when I was a kid and my grandfather was plowing but I did not differentiate between hybrids and GMOs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:00am
Have at it Ryan. Just not with cages and junk in the water restricting public access. If you feel so strongly about it, lobby the state to force all of these existing leases down this way to be worked. Because they are not. I can't go to a National or State park and raise Mary Jane or tomatoes for profit on public land. GMO or not the answer is the same on that one.

Edited by Bread Man 1 - 13 February 2018 at 10:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:04am
The new industry in NC is based in part on this man's patent.

Tripiloid oyster

Edited by Ray Brown - 13 February 2018 at 10:05am
Some trawl operator will be forced to change in order to reduce bycatch. If you worry about that more than stopping the bycatch then the resource is secondary to you. Recovery has one less advocate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:05am
And Louisiana sells by the pound. A family member once operated a shucking house where he packaged and sold those little cups in the super markets. LA oysters were $40 per 100 pounds delivered. Of course Louisiana has a fine fishery and even greater oyster fishery that employees 1000's and 1000's of people. Why? Because they take care and cultivate what they already have. They spray pea gravel on bottom to catch spat and go from there. Buy you 20-30 acres and grow them however you wish on it. Just not in our confined sounds. This state can't properly manage the oyster fishery we have. And we want to add more crap out there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:13am
I also know the first lower unit I damage, injury occurred on one of.my vessels or hull damage, the owner of the lease will be in court.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:24am
Increase in oysters will increase water filtering and provide areas of habitat for other species be they in cages, floating bags or on the bottom. Lots of little critters live in those bags and cages. Key thing is going to be where to allow/not allow to minimize negative interactions but also get beyond the Not In My Backyard philosophy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 10:31am
But if increase is what the issue is, why not start with all of our existing leases and public bottoms? The state has mismanaged oysters just like everything else.

Edited by Bread Man 1 - 13 February 2018 at 10:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 11:09am
start by utilizing the existing vs new areas? If so, would that require revoking current leases? I think there is languagge in the leasing language to do that but I'm not sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 11:29am
My point is the existing leases are not being worked according to regulations. There are a few that do, but not many. Dmf has looked the other way when it has come to the yearly requirements on existing leases. And it should be addressed.

Edited by Bread Man 1 - 13 February 2018 at 11:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 23Mako Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 11:56am
The state should have the power to revoke any lease they want because it is a public resource! Especially if it isn't being used in the agreed upon manner. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 12:10pm
Question:  In VA and other states that allow leases, is a bond required?  Just in case cleanup is needed if the person dies, gets sick, hurricane damage, etc.  We have had issues with this here in NC.

Also, pound nets have been abandoned here in NC as well and the state should consider requiring bonds for those leases as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by chriselk chriselk wrote:

Question:  In VA and other states that allow leases, is a bond required?  Just in case cleanup is needed if the person dies, gets sick, hurricane damage, etc.  We have had issues with this here in NC.

Also, pound nets have been abandoned here in NC as well and the state should consider requiring bonds for those leases as well.

Exactly-


Originally posted by Rick Rick wrote:


Instead of just a "clause" they should also include the requirement that the commercial lease holder post a performance bond.  A clause isn't going "to make sure that [cleanup] happens".   My grandfather used to say- "It's hard to get blood out of a turnip".  I don't believe the Division is going to get by with using CRFL monies to cover those non-compliant bankrupt individuals, just because "the gear poses at least a slight threat not only to fish and wildlife, but also to those who might use the area recreationally."

"Steve Murphey, Habitat and Enhancement Section chief at the North Carolina Division of Marine Fisheries, agreed it will be a good thing to see the area cleaned up. The division, he said, has now included a clause in its lease agreement to make sure that happens, should a leaseholder abandon a project or have his or her permit revoked, but that doesn’t address any existing problems"

Note:  I'm not saying that CRFL money was used for this clean-up.  The article explains that the money is coming from NOAA with a match from The Coastal Federation.  I'm saying that in the future as Aquaculture grows, the use of CRFL money should not be considered.  If the DMF isn't going to insure clean-up through performance bond requirements then funding clean-up from the Commercial Fishing Resource Fund is logical...and it shouldn't take 22-years to clean-up an abandoned site.

On another Note:  We certainly shouldn't be spending any NCDMF budget to remove derelict fishing gear.  If NOAA wants to fund it, fine.  Any funds the Division has been spending should be reimbursed from the Commercial Fishing Resource Fund.

http://www.nccoast.org/2016/02/10391/

  • This project is saving the state money. It is estimated that over the past three years, Marine Patrol’s resources used during the cleanup (staff time, boat operation, travel, etc.) have been reduced by at least half as a result of this effort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 3:09pm

...and Chris, it is possible someone is reading NC Waterman and thinking about reasonable solutions to real problems.

See #9 from a January 31 Memorandum in the MFC Feb briefing book:


January 31, 2018
 
MEMORANDUM
 
TO:  Marine Fisheries Commission
 
FROM: Steve Murphey, Director Anne Deaton, Habitat and Enhancement Section
 
SUBJECT: Potential Solutions to Address Shellfish Lease Conflicts _____________________________________________________________________________
 
At the November 2017 Marine Fisheries Commission meeting, the Division of Marine Fisheries provided an update on the shellfish lease program, highlighting the increased interest in mariculture, the lease siting and permitting processes, and challenges in balancing public trust uses. The commission requested that staff research potential solutions to address shellfish lease conflicts.  The U.N.C. Policy Collaboratory is currently developing a legislatively-mandated shellfish aquaculture plan which is due by the end of 2018.  
 
To address these growing conflicts, and not work at cross purposes with the Collaboratory, the division recommends the commission consider temporary and longer-term measures while the shellfish aquaculture plan is being developed. The commission can utilize its rulemaking authority, or it may look at legislative options to address these concerns.  The use of proclamation authority by the division director is limited under 15A NCAC 03H .0103 and the division requests legal guidance prior to use of proclamation authority for regulating shellfish leases. Below are some potential options for consideration: 
 
1. Establish a board as a prior administrative remedy prior to the Office of Administrative Hearings appeal for contested cases.

2. Create a hold on leasing in the following areas to allow development and implementation of the state shellfish mariculture plan currently under development by the Collaboratory:
a. New Hanover and Pender counties – mainland to the Intracoastal Waterway (ICWW)
b. Bogue Sound in Carteret County
c. Other high conflict areas identified by the commission.

3. Restrict the siting of new shellfish leases within 500 yards (or other safe distance) of duck blinds existing at the time of this rule (This may require coordination with N.C. Wildlife Resources Commission).

4. Condition new leases to maintain a minimum clearance at mean low water over any aquaculture gear for bottom leases that do not have a water column amendment. 
 
5. Conduct a spatial planning analysis for shellfish lease siting in public trust waters and use the results to improve the lease siting process.

6. Modify statutes to allow the nursery of shellfish seed in marinas and closed areas. The aquaculture industry needs to be able to relay seed shellfish (up to 12.5 and 25mm for clams and oysters respectively) from prohibited areas including marinas.  The division director, in consultation with Shellfish Sanitation, should consider this on a case-by-case basis to address any public health issues.  Many east coast states now allow this practice.  

7. Increase fines for theft and damage to shellfish aquaculture leases.

8. Develop rules as part of training requirements in 113-201 (c) that address eligibility of new and transfer applicants.  Current rule only requires a written test on regulation but does not require any demonstration of aquaculture experience.  

9. Explore the requirement of a performance bond or proof of insurance to address liability to the public and for derelict gear from and on a lease.

10. Place into law or rule requirements for looking at cumulative impacts of multiple leases in a given area when considering new shellfish leases.  
 
 


Edited by Rick - 13 February 2018 at 4:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 4:35pm
Here is info directly from the DMF whose time and energy I really appreciate in trying to make sure what is going on is not only legal, but in keeping with good stewardship, as well as being known to all.

1) Only native oysters can be used to seed beds in NC. They can be diploid or triploid, but must be indigenous at the core level. That means no Asian or Pacific oysters in natural waters. However, you can use them in closed aquaculture such as in tanks or closed ponds or labs such as the one we saw in Wilmington last night.

2) All imported seed oysters must be tested for pathogens by a lab. Most of the time that is VIMS out of Virginia. To be certified you must be a pathologist or in the case of one firm out of Maine, a veterinarian.

3) Seed oysters are brokered by individuals and their product has to be tested, and the species identified by the aforementioned lab in Virginia or something like it and a pathology report must accompany a permit application for those oysters to be put in a bed.

4) DMF officers would enforce any violations, but due to lack of numbers, time, or just plain funding it is not a usual occurrence for a marine officer to sample an oyster bed to determine the species. No offense to them at all. They are stretched thin as it is.

As "Roundup Ready" soybeans and other crops have become our future so will these patented triploids become the future of shellfish harvest in NC. Like any futuristic looking process it comes with a promise of good and with some concerns that for the moment are minor in comparison to the gains.

Whether they are GMO, or mutants, will remain a debate among some, but they satisfy a need very well thus are very marketable.

We will have to depend on folks like Ryan to be the first line of defense in keeping it a responsible industry.   Needless to say, that is yet but another factor in making sure we have professional people holding licenses to either harvest, or raise their own product in our public trust waters.

The science issue seems to be solved as long as indigenous oysters are being used to created the triploid, but there is no doubt that the user conflict will become an ever growing issue as these operations pop from the water.

That photo of Masonboro Sound, before and after oyster operations moved in, is going to be the real political debate going forward and there is no science there. That is simply going to be a political battle on what a natural resource should look like or how it should be used.

Again, I want to go on record saying how grateful I am to Shannan Jenkins at the DMF for her time, and patience with me, in trying to make sure I could get an accurate portrayal of how this is unfolding in NC so that accuracy could be on this board.   

Some trawl operator will be forced to change in order to reduce bycatch. If you worry about that more than stopping the bycatch then the resource is secondary to you. Recovery has one less advocate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 8:33pm
Onslow needs to be added to that list. Onslow is OVERRUN with existing leases.

Edited by Bread Man 1 - 13 February 2018 at 8:35pm
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willis1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willis1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2018 at 9:55pm
Great list of points Ray!

However those triploids very clearly are NOT GMOs - anyone who doubts that is not using any accepted definition of GMO.

And they are not mutants either in the usual meaning of "mutant" - sperm and eggs are haploid (one copy of every chromosome) and adult humans are diploid (two copies of every chromosome, one from mom and one from dad). No one would call adults "mutants" of sperm or eggs just because they have an additional set of chromosomes. Triploids only differ from normal wild oysters by having one more set of chromosomes - three instead of the usual two.

Sorry to be stubborn about the accurate use of those terms - I get the sense that folks who are using them are doing so to instill fear and suspicion, and in some cases they may be muddying the waters on purpose!

Changing ploidy (# of chromosome sets) for farming or horticulture is as old as the hills - pretty much every commercial banana sold in the 20th and 21st century is triploid, with 3 copies of every chromosome. And ordinary wheat has 6 copies of every chromosome, and its been grown for centuries! All wild salmon and trout have had 4 sets of chromosomes for thousands or perhaps millions of years. . . 

In contrast, those soybeans Ray refers to most certainly are GMOs. . . . almost all soybeans and feed corn grown in the US are GMOs . . .
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