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Georgia On My Mind- Give me Georgia Rules

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    Posted: 10 July 2017 at 11:10am


Georgia has only allowed otter trawling in its ocean waters (not in internal waters) for the last three years and only in dawn, dusk and daylight hours.


The best I can determine the "sounds" have not been open in Georgia waters in the last three years, only checked the last three years.  A review of official news releases on the DNR site shows only the opening and closing of the season, no openings of internal waters. On December 24, 2014 the ocean season was extended until Jan 15th, 2016.

http://coastalgadnr.org/nn/newsa


Areas and Seasons

The offshore waters (seaward of the sounds to the three-mile territorial limit) are permanently closed by law to food shrimp trawling from March 1st through May 14th of each year.  Based on sound biological, environmental, economic and social criteria set forth in state law, the DNR Commissioner may open state offshore waters to commercial food shrimping with power drawn nets from May 15th through December 31st of each year if shrimp counts are 45 or fewer per pound with heads on. During January and February, the Commissioner may open the offshore waters if the shrimp count is 50 or fewer per pound, heads on. The sounds are permanently closed January 1st through August 31st each year. Cumberland, St. Andrew, St. Simons, Sapelo, Ossabaw and Wassaw sounds may be opened from September 1st through December 31st at the Commissioner's discretion. (See sound/beach boundaries).


Note: Official notice of the opening or closing of waters is posted by DNR at county courthouses and on shrimp docks at least 24 hours prior to the opening or closing.  In addition, newspapers, radio stations and other media are also asked to notify interested persons. Food shrimping with power-drawn nets is never permitted in tidal rivers or creeks.


Sound/Beach Boundaries

Rule 391-2-4-.03

Sound/Beach boundaries consist of imaginary lines running through coordinates generally located on the southern tip of a barrier island to the northern tip of the next barrier island immediately south.


Hours

Legal hours for the commercial harvest of shrimp begin 30 minutes before official sunrise and extend to 30 minutes after official sunset. Trawling at night is prohibited out to the three-mile limit regardless of whether the waters are open.


Why does North Carolina allow Georgia boats to do in NC internal waters what they can't do at home?

Three Georgia boats in Adams Creek (June/July 2017) heading to the Pamlico Sound-


















How about this Georgia law that requires shrimp trawlers to file a forfeiture bond or an affidavit of clear title to the vessel.  Georgia is serious about penalties for trawling violations.

http://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-27/chapter-4/article-4/part-1/27-4-134
 



Edited by Rick - 10 July 2017 at 12:48pm
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NC Fisheries Management- Motto: Too Little, Too Late, Too Bad   Slogan: Shrimp On! Mission Statement: Enable Commercial Fishing At Any and All Cost, Regardless of Impact to the Resource.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redfisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2017 at 5:41pm

We should redo our state flag....

Place a net on one side, a trawler on the other and big middle finger right down the middle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2017 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by Redfisher Redfisher wrote:


We should redo our state flag....

Place a net on one side, a trawler on the other and big middle finger right down the middle.

I wlll buy the t shirt
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redfisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 7:57am

Please don't coax me ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cnaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 8:58am
That shirt would please the extractive anti-conservationist as as well. You'd probably make money from both sides! Middle finger sells on the beach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 9:02am
that finger is really popular with bird watchers and Baitwaster
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote themoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 9:12am
Out of pure curiosity....and ignorance of the commercial nature of shrimp trawling...

Is there any benefit at all to NC of those trawlers taking shrimp from NC inshore waters? If they do not land in NC, do they need a NC license? Are they landing in NC and selling shrimp to local dealers?

I would have to think that local shrimp trawlers would be up in arms about this... Those are shrimp that the locals can't harvest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote themoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 9:13am
And interesting that the Boone family has 3 different trawlers raiding NC waters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redfisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 9:33am
Originally posted by cnaff cnaff wrote:

That shirt would please the extractive anti-conservationist as as well. You'd probably make money from both sides! Middle finger sells on the beach.

Great point...

I've got the artwork ready.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 10:06am
Moose...yes they need a license and more than likely they are landing the shrimp at some fish house in NC.

NC fish dealers don't care who brings them seafood as long as they do! You really didn't think they had any empathy with the small family fishermen in NC who owns one or two small boats did you?

It is interesting that the Gulf states protect the small family fisherman by limiting gear in inland waters to keep the big trawlers out. They call it "enhancing the role of the small family fisherman". In NC the rules are stacked in favor of the large fleets and large fish houses. Fishermen of all types on the inside, be damned!

Edited by Ray Brown - 11 July 2017 at 10:06am
Some trawl operator will be forced to change in order to reduce bycatch. If you worry about that more than stopping the bycatch then the resource is secondary to you. Recovery has one less advocate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 10:57am
I certainly don't fully understand the processes and encourage anyone who does to chime in on this discussion and for others to chime in with any researched facts.

Let's talk about how an out-of-state trawler gets licensed to fish in NC waters-

Direct Purchase
They go through the pool process to buy an out-of-state SCFL (Standard Commercial Fishing License).

Third Party Purchases (Transfer Process)
They buy an out-of-state SCFL.
They buy an in-state SCFL and pay the fee to convert it to an out-of-state license.

Assignment Process
They "rent" a license from the current holder of a valid SCFL.

As Ray pointed out above, more than likely most are "renting" a license from a fish dealer who owns multiple SCFLs.  The dealer not only rents (assignment) them a valid SCFL but also provides dock space, ice, etc.  In return the out-of-state boat agrees to land 100% of his catch at that dealer's docks.

You can find the rules on licenses here:
http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_113/GS_113-168.2.html

under section (f) of the above you can see the rules for assignments-

(f)        Assignment. - The holder of a SCFL may assign the SCFL to any individual who is eligible to hold a SCFL under this Article. It is unlawful for the holder of an SCFL to assign a shellfish endorsement of an SCFL to any individual who is not a resident of this State. The assignment shall be in writing on a form provided by the Division and shall include the name of the licensee, the license number, any endorsements, the assignee's name, mailing address, physical or residence address, and the duration of the assignment. If a notarized copy of an assignment is not filed with the Morehead City office of the Division within five days of the date of the assignment, the assignment shall expire. It is unlawful for the assignee of a SCFL to assign the SCFL. The assignment shall terminate:

(1)        Upon written notification by the assignor to the assignee and the Division that the assignment has been terminated.

(2)        Upon written notification by the estate of the assignor to the assignee and the Division that the assignment has been terminated.

(3)        If the Division determines that the assignee is operating in violation of the terms and conditions applicable to the assignment.

(4)        If the assignee becomes ineligible to hold a license under this Article.

(5)        Upon the death of the assignee.

(6)        If the Division suspends or revokes the assigned SCFL.

(7)        At the end of the license year.


At a meeting called by Chairman Corbett in Morehead last fall to discuss defining a commercial fisherman, the assignment process was discussed.  I personally asked if out-of-state fisherman were being assigned in-state licenses.  NCDMF Deputy Director Dee Lupton replied that DMF did not monitor assignments for such information, but yes.

Q. – Can a nonresident be assigned a resident Standard Commercial Fishing License?
A. -
Yes.

http://portal.ncdenr.org/web/mf/commercial-fishing-faqs?p_p_id=56_INSTANCE_lo2S&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&p_p_col_id=column-2&p_p_col_count=2&page=2

So now let's look at statute § 113-168.1. General provisions governing licenses and endorsements.

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/BySection/Chapter_113/GS_113-168.pdf

(d) No Dual Residency. –It is unlawful for any person to hold any currently valid license issued under this Article to the person as a North Carolina resident if that person holds any currently valid commercial or recreational fishing license issued by another state to the person as a resident of that state.


NOW...you legal types explain to me how a person that holds a current valid license in another state can be assigned an in-state NC SCFL and not be in violation of 113-168.1(d).

If it is not illegal, then the intent of the law is certainly being broken...or maybe not.  That Raleigh crowd can be mighty sneaky.

The rest of the Raleigh crowd needs to understand what's truly going on. 



Edited by Rick - 11 July 2017 at 1:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 11:35am
Would another question be if the out of stater is operating under a license owned by a fish house which is also providing dockage and only allowing them to land the product at their business are they working as employees or are they independent contractors? If contractors are they being paid to work for them or are they paid by the privilege to sell only to them and no one else no matter if others are paying more for the product? Seems like in recent years NC is interested in cracking down on folks that are misclassifying independent contractors. http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article158723219.html

Are they selling/brokering the license for their own personal gain since they are requiring the operation renting the license to sell only to them?

Edited by todobien - 11 July 2017 at 11:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2017 at 11:52am
Originally posted by todobien todobien wrote:

Would another question be if the out of stater is operating under a license owned by a fish house which is also providing dockage and only allowing them to landing the product at their business are they working as employees or are they independent contractors? Seems like in recent years NC is interested in cracking down on folks that are misclassifying independent contractors. http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article158723219.html


That is not an issue.

The tax code and the courts have protected the commercial fishing industry for years and continue to do so.

As I understand it-

A dealer who owns a 70+ steel hulled trawler can assign a license to a captain who finds two crew members to go shrimping for a season on the Pamlico Sound.  The captain and crew are independent contractors. 


An old discussion-
http://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3517&context=clr

Current law-
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/self-employed-fishermen

Self-Employed Fishermen

Certain fishermen who work on a fishing boat are considered to be self-employed for purposes of employment and self-employment taxes. A fisherman is considered self-employed if he meets all of the following conditions:

  1. He receives a share of the catch or a share of the proceeds from the sale of the catch.
  2. His share depends on the amount of the catch.
  3. He receives his share from a boat (or from each boat in the case of a fishing operation involving more than one boat) with an operating crew that is normally made up of fewer than 10 individuals. This requirement is considered to be met if the average number of crew members on trips the boat made during the last 4 calendar quarters was less than 10.
  4. He does not get any money from his work (other than his share of the catch or of the proceeds form the sale of the catch), unless the pay meets all of the following conditions.
    • He does not get more than $100 per trip
    • He is paid only if there is some minimum catch.
    • He is paid solely for additional duties (such as for services performed as mate, engineer, or cook) for which additional cash payments are traditional in the fishing industry.

...and a mostly cash market with no 1099s results in a questionable trip ticket program (those pesky records)...

...and this

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/north-carolina-seafood-distributor-pleads-guilty-tax-evasion

...and a lot of unreported available cash to heavily grease the skids of fisheries management through "political science".


Edited by Rick - 11 July 2017 at 2:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2017 at 8:50am
Two more out of state boats doing in NC waters what they are not allowed to do at home!

Why do we allow these huge ocean going vessels to trawl in our internal estuarine nursery areas?

Why do the mom-n-pop small boat operators not fight this unfair competition?  These industrial boats flood the market crashing the price of shrimp.  Only a handful of dealers win.












Forgiven is a regular player in the Pamlico Sound.  I also saw him in both 2015 and 2016.

http://www.ncwaterman.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79517&title=miniature-facts-reveal-the-truth










Edited by Rick - 21 July 2017 at 9:01am
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