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Striper Insanity - part 2

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    Posted: 24 May 2016 at 7:58am
I asked about stripers in a cobia thread and it is becoming a hijack so  I figured we better start a new thread.  Here are the pertinent posts from the other thread.  My new comments are below. 



Originally posted by Chuck Laughridge Chuck Laughridge wrote:

Originally posted by bakesta bakesta wrote:

Originally posted by Chuck Laughridge Chuck Laughridge wrote:

 ..........  100s of comments on stocked rockfish and maybe a dozen on cobia til last Thursday............. 



Curious - if 100's of comments were received, did stocked striped bass even get mentioned during the meeting?







Yes they did get mentioned, discussed and a motion was made to, and this is not exact at 5:18 before coffee, to have the Conservation Fund AC (not the CRFL TRust Fund AC, to provide monies immediately to NCDMF to fund the DNA testing of all striped bass/rockfish fin clips to Dr Tonya Darden at SC Wildlife (she does the NCWRC testing on their fin clips), and to make efforts to have those back before the August meeting of the the MFC.  This should either corroborate or dispute the current NCWRC data on the CSMA.

Also the MFC discussed the DMF and WRC meeting to address this striped bass/rockfish issue, and a tentative date has already been set for that meeting.  In addition, Dr Davis and Gordon Myers of the WRC have already met and discussed this and other issues.

Hopefully, if the stars align, there will be time to revisit this prior to the Oct 1st open of the CSMA season.  An FMP can be modified by proclamation/supplement or amendment, as I'm sure y'all all are aware of.

For something nt on the agenda, YES, it was discussed and action was taken to move forward with steps to do whatever a majority of the MFC directs be done.

Good Fishing!!!   







Originally posted by chriselk chriselk wrote:

Chucks description of the CSMA discussion is also how I took the MFCs action.  Whether a joint meeting occurs between the warring agencies remains to be seen.  We have seen these meetings dissolve or be delayed for months, many months, in the past.

As a former scientist, before I ever did an experiment, I always asked:

1.  What is the question?  
2.  I would ask myself, if the results were A what would that mean and would that justify the experiment.  Same if B were the result. Would the results be a contribution to the literature and move the field forward. 

1.  What is the Question?  Is this the question we should be asking?  In this case, DNA testing can say that striped bass came from the Hatchery and possibly what percentage were derived from the hatchery.  It cannot say how many (%) are wild native.  We can tell tell this because we have the DNA from the parental matings and can compare the DNA (via polymerase chain reaction followed by Restriction Fragment Length Polymorphism/DNA sequencing studies).  We do not, to my knowledge, have parental DNA from "native wild" fish in the CSMA.  Thus, those fish who do not match the hatchery parental allele ("other") could be native wild fish, or fish that migrated in from another system.  We have inferred that those "other" fish that do not match the parental DNA are thought to be less than 7%.  These are apparently fish harvested from spawning grounds.  I am told that WRC also has additional limited data from other locations.  
So if the fish are all hatchery fish as some believe (result A), one interpretation is that since there are no native fish left there is no rush to stop the 22 years of overfishing and we can wait until the next FMP.  
If there are a "substantial" number of wild fish (Result B-whatever number that is) then we should rush to save them.  This number should be defined before the experiment.

While I think that the DNA results are interesting and will be useful to design new strategies for recovery, that question is irrelevant and in my opinion a deflection and delay.  

There are essentially no mature striped bass in the CSMA due to overfishing. This alone completely explains the lack of young offspring.   This is the equivalent of if we killed all humans at age 12 years of age-how would human reproduction work?  What we are doing if seeing if the striped bass are caucasian or african american, not stopping the overfishing.

The MFC has granted the Director of DMF complete power over the Estuarine Striped Bass fishery.  This was done so that adaptive management could be done between FMPs when new data warrants action.  The new data are the two recent studies by WRC.  All of this can be solved by the Director by stopping the overfishing now.





Thank you for posting the explanation Chuck!

I agree 100% Chris!


This is an attempt by DMF to stall.  

The WRC has aready done a nice study using one technology.  ECU scientists performed a parallel study using a different technology.  Both studies had almost identical results which showed that stripers in the CMSA are at least 90% stocked fish.

Now the DMF is going to spend time and money to do a third study.  I'm furious that the  MFC has allowed this and approved the money.  It's ridiculous!

And this DMF study, according to "inside information", is going to use trip ticket data to determine the location of the stripers being caught.  This  is a fatal flaw - their study is only as accurate as the trip tickets.  And trip tickets don't have the best reputation.

 The WRC captured the fish personally for their study  and can give an exact location for each one.   I'm not sure where ECU scientists got their fish, but I'll but their scientific methods were solid. 

Now we have DMF repeating everything with their own samples that they will get from fish dealers?

This is just a ridiculous waste of time and money with the only goal being  to find a way to continue gillnetting stocked striped bass from the CSMA.Angry

FIX THE PROBLEM - DON'T WASTE MONEY TRYING TO PROTECT A  BAD FISHERY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





Edited by bakesta - 24 May 2016 at 8:35am
"Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." --- Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 9:55am
What Chris and Bakesta said.  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glacierbaze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 10:11am
Chuck said that a motion was made.  Was it passed?
"You can never elevate your own character by stepping on someone else's."

"Never argue with a man who loves the sound of his own voice."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 10:22am
Rep Billy Richardson and I spoke to a fairly large group of citizens west of Raleigh last night, many of them who do fish for stripers and they are very upset with what is going on in NC.

Fishery politics in NC is non partisan, but that doesn't mean it isn't heating up across the state and across all party lines.

If you don't plan to make fishing in this state better, by getting your representative involved who has the power to rebuild and maintain stocks, then when you get to the water you'll find a resource just as good as what you planned for it to be! Think about it and then make one three minute phone call a week until the waters of NC are pretty close to your plan of acceptance.

Edited by Ray Brown - 24 May 2016 at 10:23am
I am a native of NC. The "bycatch captial of the east coast of the US". Our legislature lets us kill more fish for no reason than any other Atlantic Coast state. I hope they are proud.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 2:45pm
One small point about sampling.  It is nearly impossible to get representative sampling in this fishery.

The fish house samples.  Fishermen go to fish where they can catch the most fish with the least effort.  Its human nature, nothing wrong with that, striped bass are unevenly distributed.   I do not criticize either WRC for collecting spawning samples or DMF for collecting fish house samples.

But is there any evidence that hatchery fish and wild native fish hang together?  This is the South and maybe they are still segregatedWink
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 3:32pm
After thirty + years of stocking Roanoke River genetics in the Neuse and Tar Rivers it is unlikely that a pure Neuse or Tar wild strain endemic fish stock exists, unlikely but not impossible.

but as one highly respected research professor clearly stated-

"my scientific opinion is that we cannot wait 3 years. In that period of time the wild Tar and Neuse striped bass populations will be extinct.  This is clearly confirmed independently by both otolith and genetics studies. What you are suggesting will be a put-and-removal fishery, with no recruitment.  This will cost the fisheries agencies hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue. If stocking stops, so does the fishery.  I ask that NCDMF reconsider their position, as this is an emergency situation and we still have a small window in which to act."

as another highly respected biologist told me when confirming the urgency of this matter-
Although the possibility is remote, it is not out of the question.  If such a population exists, it would be the key to success.  Establishing a spawning stock with stocked fish is going to take years.  Imprinted fish, whether from native stock or prior stockings, is key.  The problem is we're killing too many fish.  This small population with imprinted spawning potential must be protected and allowed to reach optimum spawning maturity.

Chris explained perfectly why genetic testing on fin clips from this winter's fish house collections will give us little additional information.

It should be clearly noted that a high probability exists that any fish above 20" to 24" was stocked prior to parentage based tagging; i.e. genetic material was not collected from the parent stock.  Therefore fin clips from a larger fish that can't be identified back to genetically tagged parent stock may be due to several factors-
  • Endemic Wild Strain (low probability)
  • Stocked Fish Prior to Genetic Tagging (high probability)
  • Immigration of Fish From Outside the CSMA (low probability)

The brood fish for the stocking program has now been switched to endemic parent stock, but with a high probability that those parent fish are of stocked origin.  






Edited by Rick - 24 May 2016 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chuck Laughridge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by Glacierbaze Glacierbaze wrote:

Chuck said that a motion was made.  Was it passed?

Yes.  Motion was to send the fin clips of fish 24 inches and smaller (since they correspond to the genetic strains from each river system and only fish from the Tar/Pam, Neuse/Trent  and Cape Fear have been stocked over the last 4 years, which corresponds to a 24" fish).  Clips may be back by the August meeting and the cost of this will be covered by a grant from The Conservation Fund (not CRFL Trust Fund).

I assume and feel that y'all should as well, that the earliest action to request a proclamation, or supplement would be August, and it would be based on, not only the fin clips's DNA, but the results from a meeting with DMF and WRC.  I feel that a tentative date may already have been set.

The dynamic could change on the MFC due to appointments for seats that have expiring terms of June 30th ------ Willis (filled in for the late, Paul Rose), Gorges, and me, and assume former Comm Rhodes's seat will be filled.

Oh, the season on CSMA rockfish doesn't open til Oct.

Good Fishing!!!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 7:00pm
Thanks Chuck for the clarification.
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chuck Laughridge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 8:25pm
You're welcome.

And I may be wrong, but I think the commercial season is in the spring, but I'll check.

Good Fishing!!!
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